Helping with clearing up when at somebody's home for a meal.

[maryanne3]

Really interested in other people's views on this, as there is genuine split in my female friends. I have been keen on the idea of equality of gender roles, particularly with things like housework and childcare, ever since being a teenager. My partner and myself have always shared in a pretty pragmatic manner, and we also have equal earning power. Cooking and cleaning up is shared rigorously.

It always surprises me though when I go to, lets say 'more traditional' homes for dinner, where the woman will have done the cooking and "hostessing" while the chap limits himself to opening and pouring the odd bottle of wine, that there seems to be an expectation that the women of the group will get up and help the hostess clear up while the blokes sit around the table discussing football or whatever. This has so irritated me in the past that I have started refusing to budge; ignoring any gentle hints to the contrary, (I swear one 'more traditional' husband actually glares as at me because I am not helping his wife out, when I know for a fact he will not have lifted a finger, before, during or after the meal). There is a side of me which feels bad; the poor woman is being left to do it all herself, but honestly, why can't everybody help and halve the time of the chore?

I do think of suggesting this sometimes, but I do not want to make a scene. Am I rude, or am I right to stick to my guns?

I'm a lifelong feminist and I don't like anyone, DH included, 'helping' in the kitchen. Is it possible the chores are just being shared in a way that isn't obvious to you?

Everything doesn't have to be split down the middle, sometimes women prefer to cook. DH is much better at hosting than I am and being in the kitchen some of the time gives me a little buffer zone away from small talk and forgetting to keep glasses full.

I agree that men sitting down while women clear is annoying on the face of it but joining them in their rudeness doesn't seem like a solution.

I’m in my mid-50s and this sort of thing still happens to some extent within my family and with friends from my working class roots, but not really with my middle class friends from uni and work. Intersectional feminism might see it as a difference born out of the greater power more educated women of my age were able to wield in relationships due to greater earning power? Not certain if that would be supported by the data, though.

In some ways I don’t see why your female friends should expect you to clear but not the men they have also cooked for etc. If they were upset with you because of it, that would be really rude of them. But in my experience, where this happens, the women wouldn’t be upset that you didn’t join them clearing up, they would just find it odd. Most of them seem to cherish the time with just female friends away from the men. They get up and help not so much because they think it’s their job, but because it’s a way to chat without the guys around.

I fully appreciate that some women simply prefer to do those sort of jobs, and the husband could be (for example) doing the garden/car maintenance etc (although in the case of the traditional husband I referred to I know he does none of these either, but that is not the point). It is just this division of roles at the end of the evening for everybody which gets my goat. Even my normally helpful and cooperative husband will join the lads in sitting around the table while the women clear up, I am not sure why, possibly to fit in.

It is not enough to say that one is just compounding their rudeness by joining them. I feel if this behaviour remains unchallenged then these blokes will continue to think it is OK to sit around being waited on hand and foot, and that women quite enjoy it, giving them a chance to gossip in the kitchen (I've heard that one trotted out several times).

If it's my friends or family, DH clears the table & loads the dishwasher. Vice versa if it's his.

I don't want anyone helping me in the kitchen. I just clear and leave it - I'm not going to get stuck in the kitchen while everyone else is having a good time at the table or back in the living room!
My husband was the cook when we entertained anyway, and was the kind of cook to clean as he went, so just the dinnerware and cutlery to put in the dishwasher, which again could wait.
So no divide in our house.

I would never clear up in someone else's home, or expect them to do so in mine, regardless of sex. I do see your point, though.

If there's any split in our circle it is usually based around whoever cooks get to stay chatting and the other clears.

If I were you I'd just call them out - come on then Frank, Barbara's done it all so far so it must be you on the clearing and washing up - big smile!!

I think there are other ways of taking a stand that don’t increase the workload of the hostess. Like jollying along the guests and making a point of letting her sit back. But you do need to be sensitive to her own preferences too.

We’re a half generation younger and dh would automatically get up and help. My df would have helped clear up in his own house, but not necessarily as a guest. He’d have seen his role as guest to be grateful and effusive in his appreciation but to accept those gestures of hospitality.

Neither mil nor fil would get up and clear in my house, though they split their domestic duties very evenly. Mil apologises for not pitching in but fil is oblivious.

But full credit to her for the son she raised.

Yes, I’ve seen this happen in some groups but my OH (male) is always one of the first people to get up and help clear. He does it without agenda or complaint because he’s just always been the sort to help, but I always resent the other men for not getting up and joining him!

I would say though that in the main group of friends we socialise with, everyone helps. Sometimes the man cooks, sometimes the woman but both male and female guests will get up after a meal and help clear away.

At MIL’s house, especially at Xmas, me and SILs will cook (with some help from MIL but she’s quite frail). At the end of the meal, SILs will start to tidy up while their lazy assed husbands and adult sons don’t lift a finger!

DH has a tendency to revert to “son” mode, but happily helps if I nudge him.

It is hard because if I don’t help, SILs would do it all, but I don’t see why any of us should.

In my family whoever cooks doesn’t tidy up, and everyone else (male or female) mucks in to get it sorted.

I hate it when guests start clearing up, I know they mean to be helpful but I find it really rude. They are my guests - I want them to relax and I want to relax with them. After dinner we want to push the chairs back and chat. Clearing up is a miserable way to end an evening- we can do it when they’ve gone! It’s even worse when guests insist on helping and all dh and want to do is sit down and enjoy their company. I’m like ‘no, honestly, we can do it later’ —tomorrow— and they still insist which means I have to do it too when I really cba! Rant over!

I'm not sure that is isn't your particular set of friends.

DF and FIL were both born in the 1940s. FIL looks after the drinks and clears up after meals when they host.

DF meanwhile does not clear up and never has done so. I remember, even when he was in his 40s, eating and sitting back while everyone else ran around clearing up.

Even with FIL helping, DH tends to sit back and let his mother run around fetching him anything he might need whereas at home, DH does all the cooking and very often most of the clearing up too to avoid dealing with the kids

My most traditional couple friends are my favourite people to invite for dinner.
He actually loads the dishwasher before they leave!

Why don't you ask your DH to help?
I usually offer DH's help as my family contribution 😄

My parents both cooked and cleaned up and made us do it too at home. However when we went to dinners as guests it was the women who got up to help and my sister and I were taught to do the same. The boys and adult men just sat there. It's so old fashioned and I hated it even then. I still get up to help in someone's house, but male guests do too. Your male friends need better or more modern manners.

I prefer the cleaning up to be done by dh and I after.

However in your situation I would invite the same group yo yours for dinner as next meet up. When it was clean up time announce. "As the women did the cleaning up at Amy and Bobs last time this time its the guys turn." Then ask the women what they would like to drink and make it clear that is how it will be.

Not like they will argue how it is in your home and it should hopefully set a even split expectation going forward

Presume your husband is helping ? Why don't you both help. Looks a bit rude to not help yourself because you want the men to do it. You've been served food too and looked after. It's not really the place to make a protest which others might not know the point of your behaviour. You could say , I'm not helping because you all should but that's not really on in someone else's home.

There is a phrase 'do what's right, not what's fair'. I think in your own home you can do what ever you like but if you don't enjoy the meals out because you are judging others behaviour and relationships ,font go.

DH is in charge of clearing up, he can cook to sustain himself/me if I can't be arsed but I wouldn't subject guests to it. I actually like cooking and worked in professional kitchens when I was young, so the default is that I cook he cleans up. I always wave away any guest offers to clear, although my dad will start to clear the table regardless, he says he likes to be tidy, I think he likes to move on to pudding while my mum and I chat 😁

You’re not wrong, this would infuriate me too. A better solution would be for your DH to take the stand rather than you, though - better equality and example is not just when women stop doing the things, but when men start doing them too. (Which of course is the case at home and in other situations).

Even my normally helpful and cooperative husband will join the lads in sitting around the table while the women clear up, I am not sure why, possibly to fit in.

So I’d work on this part. Have a word with him and prompt him to watch for this and proactively step up. You can alternate who does it, or both do it.

I'd missed the bit where your husband sits back too. He's not as progressive as you think he is, I'd concentrate my ire on him as he's the one you may influence and he's the one pretending to see women as equals and then becomes a turn coat. Think it's quite funny your judgement of other 'traditional' households.

This is perfect.

I also used to get pissed off with this.

In the end I had to ask my husband to be the one to clear up after I had cooked the meal. If he cooked, then I cleared. In the end he was happy to do it while I stayed at the table. I think he realised how good it made him look, so it was a win win.

I think you should ask if your DH would be willing to get up after a meal and help the ladies. Even better if as he got up he said to the hostess “that was a wonderful meal, why don’t you all (the women) stay at the table and we (the men), will clear”.

Funny enough, when my husband got up to clear and I stayed sitting, the husbands were more likely to get up and help, and the women more likely to stay sitting.

You say your husband helps out 50/50, he’s an ally and you should use him.

I'm in my late 50s and, in my experience, everyone lends a hand - men, women and kids.

Good for you. Had similar experiences myself.

Even my normally helpful and cooperative husband will join the lads in sitting around the table while the women clear up, I am not sure why, possibly to fit in.

I'd start by asking if he realises he's doing this and, if so, why he does it.