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Feminism: chat

I went to the Tavistock as a young person - AMA

636 replies

MAW1993 · 23/04/2024 14:18

I attended the Tavistock from 2008 to 2011, beginning when I was about 15. I made this post because I saw the many questions people asked on a previous AMA. Unfortunately, the OP was uncomfortable answering some of them, and I felt there may be a need for an AMA with someone who can be more open.

OP posts:
MsLuxLisbon · 28/04/2024 18:14

OP, I am in complete awe of you, your intelligence, articulacy, and reason.

I have one question, and I appreciate it is maybe a silly one, but it is branching off something you said earlier. If you could choose to be reborn, would you choose being a biological male or a biological female without your sex dysphoria?

DramaLlamaBangBang · 28/04/2024 18:32

MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 18:00

So it's a bit of a long answer but I really watched it all unfolding in front of my eyes over the years. Starting from my late teens I noticed discourse changing significantly. It was often hard to find examples of trans men, as most trans spaces consisted of trans women. Obviously there is solidarity there, but we each have specific issues and a need to connect with others who are the same. There ended up being a large community of trans men posting on tumblr that became a really good space to make friends, seek advice, and feel understood.

Then I started to see posts like the gender gingerbread person, which I always found to be stupid but assumed was benign. Suddenly though, that was the only acceptable way to frame your history, and any talk other than 'I was always a boy/girl because of my gender identity' was internalised transphobia and biological essentialism. Next came the increasing dominance of abusive people like 'genderbitch', whose entire content was defined by a pathological hatred and jealously of women and trans men.

It was from there that concepts like 'transmisogyny' emerged. Now I would never deny that there are unique forms of discrimination targeted specifically at trans women. However, that concept was used almost exclusively to denigrate 'privileged' trans men, and the disgrace of us taking up all the space. No trans man was entitled to reclaim trans slurs (not that I would do that anyway), and a trans man could barely post a thing without first apologising in some way and committing to 'centering transfeminine voices'. At a similar time, the concept of 'binary privilege' emerged, which asserted that trans people who transitioned were privileged over and oppressive to non-binary people and those without sex dysphoria (who at this point were largely one and the same). The reality of violence, discrimination, and the difficulties inherent to medical transition were waved away with talk of how much worse things were for those who wore a dress on occasion, because no one respected their legitimacy.

Trans people who disagreed with any of these notions would be ganged up on, accused of every form of bigotry under the sun, and targeted for abuse and harassment. The result was that people either stopped interacting, or pretended to agree with everything regardless of their personal feelings. As a result, the only voices that then existed were those pushing this ideology. That also resulted in the next generation of young trans people buying into it hook, line, and sinker as the only legitimate way to consider trans issues.

I belonged to the group who largely stopped engaging, and tried to divorce myself from the 'trans community', who made me feel increasingly uncomfortable, especially as someone with experience of male sexual violence. However, I was added to a secret facebook group for trans men by a friend. I originally intended to leave, but it started out as a much more normal space with people just asking for advice on every day issues for trans people. Unfortunately, even that space was ultimately invaded by people, who whilst biologically female, pushed the same agenda. Around that time was then I began to see lots of campaigns highlighting how 'some men have vaginas' and 'not everyone who menstruates is a women'. I always felt deeply uncomfortable with that. My biological sex has always been a source of misery for me, and I have done everything possible to move away from it. It's not all that fun to then have it exposed to morbid public curiosity at every turn. The people who pushed all that seemed to have absolutely no respect or consideration for the feelings of people with sex dysphoria.

I remember one incident where one person in that facebook group actually made their true feelings heard, which resulted in a mass of comments from people who had also felt deep discomfort but had been afraid to air it publicly. It was in relation to one non-binary user, whose main activity up until then had been to post youtube videos where they discussed how much they 'loved their vagina and dicklet' and how hot men found it to f* them. They started a petition to take sex dysphoria out of DSM, which resulted in many people reacting in disgust due to both the erasure of it, and the potential impact that could have on access to treatment. Ultimately the post was closed because it was too 'toxic' and I left the group. The only people I interact with today belong to a group for post-surgical trans men, where my feelings on these matters are shared almost universally.

As to what I believe was the motivation behind all of this, I think it was to fulfil the aims of abusive people, who wanted to behave in a typically predatory male fashion without anyone being able to raise attention to it. If all you can say is that a trans woman is a woman, no matter whether they masturbate in public, walk around in fetish gear in front of children, or deceitfully remove a condom to try and impregnate unsuspecting trans men and women (all real examples), then it removes people's ability to identify and address male sexual violence. IMO that's precisely why the focus has always been on removing what it means to be a woman, because the trans people engaging in this kind of behaviour are invariably biologically male. I'm sure there are examples of trans men who have sexually assaulted others, just as there are examples of women who have, but the same distribution of offending exists. If anyone who says they are a woman is one, and if no one can define which organs are female, then how can you challenge this kind sex-based violence?

OP I'm so sorry you have been betrayed like this. It didn't occur to me thst trans men were treated so badly within the trans community. I don't know why, although it seems the voices of trans men have been largely quiet. It kind of reinforces to me certsin transwomen who are basically sexual fetishists are misogynist. They see you as a woman, even as they claim to be women and can therefore bully you and see you as ' lesser' than them. I am angry on your behalf that you have had to suffer at the hands of these people, who have taken away safe spaces for vulnerable people. Shame on them, and shame on their cheerleaders and 'allies'.

FlexIt · 28/04/2024 18:45

The “funny” thing is that I don’t think any male would ever have the insight that OP has.
This whole mess in society seems to have been wrought by immense male entitlement from just about every single direction. Females in general (including op in this sense) would never or almost never exhibit such entitlement.
@MAW1993 would or do you access male segregated spaces ie those designed for males for valid reasons? Eg male victims of domestic abuse, male only swimming sessions etc. What do you think about this subject?

MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 18:45

WaitingForMojo · 28/04/2024 17:38

Thank you for such a considered and respectful response, once again. It really is incredibly helpful.

Where do you stand on the use of labels such as ‘demi-girl’ etc? I personally don’t fully understand them but respect people’s right to refer to themselves as they wish. I just wondered whether those labels are harmful in any way to the trans community?

To be completely honest, it drives me up the wall that instead of trying to remove sex/gender based restrictions and stereotypes, society has instead turned to the generation of endless gender identities to reflect normal human variation.

That said, I am also aware that younger people with sex dysphoria have been surrounded by this kind of ideology since birth, and that that will undoubtedly influence the language they use to express themselves. As such, on an individual level, I will use the pronouns and name that they prefer, because their involuntary immersion in an ideology that fails us all does not preclude the possibility they suffer genuine sex dysphoria.

I appreciate the concern that young people without sex dysphoria are also getting caught up in it, and that by using someone's preferred pronouns and new name could encourage it further. However, in my experience, refusing to do so inflames rather than ameliorates the situation. People are made to feel personally attacked and become very defensive, which shuts down the ability to engage them in an open exploration of their feelings. Instead, I think it is better to challenge stereotypical ideas, and explore different possibilities in a non-judgemental fashion, rather than trying to debate their personal identity itself.

To provide a more concrete example, I was asked to provide advice by my aunt and uncle to a 15 year old cousin who was questioning his gender. He had always been a sweet and sensitive boy, and we had suspicions he may be gay from a young age. Of course that resulted in horrendous and incessant bullying. He had already started using a girl's name by the time we spoke, which I used alongside 'she/her' pronouns. It became clear to me very quickly, that this was a very unhappy young person, desperately searching for a place in the world where they would be met with love and acceptance. His mother had tried to talk to him about his feelings, but it's hard for any teenager to talk about things like their sexuality or private parts with their parents. It was much easier for him with an older cousin, who he knew to be trans, and it became clear that whilst he had some body image issues (as with almost any teenager), he wasn't distressed by his biological sex itself.

I think if I had then started with 'then you're not trans', that would have resulted in him feeling judged and interrogated. Instead we explored the reality of medical transition - both the possible benefits that can arise from it for some people, and the way it can go very wrong for others. I was honest about the difficulties in my life, the nature of the distress that I had felt, and the relief that medical interventions had provided. That resulted in him saying that he wasn't sure if changing his body was right for him and that he wanted to think about it more. He remained using a female name and pronouns for a good few months, but my aunt told me that the constant begging for hormone blockers had diminished. She also found a local LGBT youth group, where he made friends with kids identifying in lots of different ways, including gay, lesbian and trans.

The female identity persisted for a while longer, followed by non-binary, and ending with saying he was a gay boy. Today he is 20, is very gender non-conforming but happily lives as a man. He is at university, and has lots of friends who love and accept him exactly as he is. I am extremely relieved he did not change his body, and live to regret it. I'm also very glad I didn't go in all guns blazing when I started to have some doubts over whether medical transition was right for him. I think all that would have resulted in would be him shutting down, and losing the one avenue where he felt supported to explore his feelings.

OP posts:
MsLuxLisbon · 28/04/2024 18:48

Oh, and one more question, if you please and if it isn't offensive. Should trans men prisoners be housed in the men's or the women's estate, or should there be a third space? Or should it depend upon the nature of the offense? I think that everyone here would agree that people like Adam Bryant and Andrew Miller should be housed with men, despite their claiming to be women, but that doesn't mean that trans men should also be housed with their biological sex. In short, I think that only biological women should be in a woman's prison. Do you agree with this or do you think it is problematic?

popebishop · 28/04/2024 19:11

their involuntary immersion in an ideology that fails us all does not preclude the possibility they suffer genuine sex dysphoria.

A great point and something that's perhaps hard for some of us to take into account!

Don't know if you've seen this article/ thread OP but it chimed with some of what you are saying.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5006097-5006097-where-did-all-the-weird-nerd-women-go-by-eliza-mondegreen?reply=133468056

Where did all the Weird Nerd Women go? by Eliza Mondegreen | Mumsnet

Long, but interesting, interview by Eliza Mondegreen about the kind of dynamics that arises within online spaces for hobbies & interests that are...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5006097-5006097-where-did-all-the-weird-nerd-women-go-by-eliza-mondegreen?reply=133468056

FlexIt · 28/04/2024 19:14

Goodness OP if you are ever ready I do hope you would consider helping young people explore these issues, providing some of the balanced understanding and support they need without propelling them in a direction from which it’s harder to return.

MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 20:12

MsLuxLisbon · 28/04/2024 18:14

OP, I am in complete awe of you, your intelligence, articulacy, and reason.

I have one question, and I appreciate it is maybe a silly one, but it is branching off something you said earlier. If you could choose to be reborn, would you choose being a biological male or a biological female without your sex dysphoria?

Thank you so much. To be honest I really don't think I would mind either way, just to feel ok with my body would be wonderful. I'm confident that I will do once I have had phalloplasty, and that is a prospect that makes me feel much more hopeful about the future. It would be nice to just have that automatically without all the stress and difficulty though.

OP posts:
MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 20:20

DramaLlamaBangBang · 28/04/2024 18:32

OP I'm so sorry you have been betrayed like this. It didn't occur to me thst trans men were treated so badly within the trans community. I don't know why, although it seems the voices of trans men have been largely quiet. It kind of reinforces to me certsin transwomen who are basically sexual fetishists are misogynist. They see you as a woman, even as they claim to be women and can therefore bully you and see you as ' lesser' than them. I am angry on your behalf that you have had to suffer at the hands of these people, who have taken away safe spaces for vulnerable people. Shame on them, and shame on their cheerleaders and 'allies'.

Thank you. Sadly, though hardly surprisingly, trans men were far from their only target. Young or attractive trans women, people with sex dysphoria, and anyone who raised awareness of abusive behaviour was treated abysmally too. Basically anyone they couldn't coerce into agreeing with them, or who they were jealous of, was a legitimate target. To see the effect of that you only need to look at trans organisations and people filling trans officer roles today. There is an utter dearth of medically transitioned trans people.

OP posts:
MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 20:26

FlexIt · 28/04/2024 18:45

The “funny” thing is that I don’t think any male would ever have the insight that OP has.
This whole mess in society seems to have been wrought by immense male entitlement from just about every single direction. Females in general (including op in this sense) would never or almost never exhibit such entitlement.
@MAW1993 would or do you access male segregated spaces ie those designed for males for valid reasons? Eg male victims of domestic abuse, male only swimming sessions etc. What do you think about this subject?

There are lots of both trans men and trans women who feel exactly the same as I do. People are just scared to say anything.

No. On a personal level it is not a comfortable space for me to be in. On an ethical level I think both men and women are entitled to same sex space. I am good friends with several Muslim men on my course and have been invited to social activities run by the ISOC. Beyond the fact that I'm an atheist, their events are sex segregated. As such I do not attend, as I think it would be unethical to undermine their religious beliefs, regardless of my feelings on that matter. Fortunately, having a persistently needy dog is a wonderful excuse to avoid many social events 😂

OP posts:
MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 20:34

MsLuxLisbon · 28/04/2024 18:48

Oh, and one more question, if you please and if it isn't offensive. Should trans men prisoners be housed in the men's or the women's estate, or should there be a third space? Or should it depend upon the nature of the offense? I think that everyone here would agree that people like Adam Bryant and Andrew Miller should be housed with men, despite their claiming to be women, but that doesn't mean that trans men should also be housed with their biological sex. In short, I think that only biological women should be in a woman's prison. Do you agree with this or do you think it is problematic?

I think there should be two alternative provisions - one for biologically female trans people, and one for biologically male trans people. I don't think that should vary depending on the nature of the offense because both trans men and women have unique needs that would best be served in specialist provision, and men and women are entitled to privacy and safety in prison.

On a personal level, I'd be perfectly content to see the likes of Adam Bryson and Andrew Miller have the most miserable time possible in the men's estate to be honest though.

OP posts:
MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 20:41

FlexIt · 28/04/2024 19:14

Goodness OP if you are ever ready I do hope you would consider helping young people explore these issues, providing some of the balanced understanding and support they need without propelling them in a direction from which it’s harder to return.

Thank you but to be honest I wouldn't touch child/adolescent gender services with a barge pole in terms of specialities. Clinicians only end up being harassed and abused by activists on one 'side', the other 'side', or most often both.

I have been asked a few times by people who know I am trans to speak to a young family member etc. and I am always happy to. However, as not many people know these days, that's pretty rare. Nothing would make me happier than being able to help young people struggling with sex dysphoria, whether they decide to transition or not. However, even disregarding how little I want to do with what has become a very toxic space, I don't think I would be able to effect any kind of positive change as it is all so entrenched now.

OP posts:
JuliaPN1978 · 28/04/2024 20:59

OP do you think there is enough awareness of the harms that can occur with medical treatments like hormones? Were these told to you when you were prescribed testosterone? And if you feel comfortable saying, having you suffered from any of these effects yourself?

For example Buck Angel almost died from vaginal atrophy that caused sepsis and they think it might increase the risk of gynaecological cancers. Also the increased risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes etc.

Terref · 28/04/2024 21:08

OP I just want to send you all my best. You seem so clear sighted, thoughtful, and reasonable.

I'm so sorry for the suffering you've been through.

Can you imagine learning to live with your body as it is?

Have you listened to Scott Newgent on the subject of surgical transition?

MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 21:19

JuliaPN1978 · 28/04/2024 20:59

OP do you think there is enough awareness of the harms that can occur with medical treatments like hormones? Were these told to you when you were prescribed testosterone? And if you feel comfortable saying, having you suffered from any of these effects yourself?

For example Buck Angel almost died from vaginal atrophy that caused sepsis and they think it might increase the risk of gynaecological cancers. Also the increased risk of heart disease, stroke, diabetes etc.

Yeah the consent form was long and explicit about the effects they know of (elevation to male risk profile for CVS disease etc.), what they didn't know, and the potentially risks they theorised. That was mainly a concern over the risk of endometrial cancer. They told me I'd either need to get a hysterectomy within a few years of beginning or have regular scans. However, I read the other day that the effect on the endometrium that they were concerned about did not actually pan out, so that guidance isn't used anymore.

I'm not aware of any specific complications yet, though I am 31 and try to stay reasonably fit and healthy. As mentioned above, I did have a gynaecological issue but that wasn't related to the testosterone.

OP posts:
WaitingForMojo · 28/04/2024 21:29

Do you feel that young people with sex dysphoria should be prescribed puberty blockers, or have to go through puberty as the sex they were born?

I appreciate that’s probably a simplistic question… I guess I’m asking where you stand on puberty blockers and their availability or otherwise as a treatment for young people approaching puberty?

MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 21:29

Terref · 28/04/2024 21:08

OP I just want to send you all my best. You seem so clear sighted, thoughtful, and reasonable.

I'm so sorry for the suffering you've been through.

Can you imagine learning to live with your body as it is?

Have you listened to Scott Newgent on the subject of surgical transition?

Thank you so much. Honestly, no I can't. My distress began as a toddler and is just as acute almost 30 years later today with regards to my genitalia, whilst I wait to have phalloplasty.

I haven't heard of Scott Newgent, so can't comment specifically on his views. However, I must be honest that I do not regularly seek out the opinion of others on my transition (or transition more generally), because I feel like I've spent enough time having to justify myself and having my life questioned.

I've never felt a moment of doubt, regret or anything other than profound relief regarding the medical and surgical options I have undergone in the last 13 years.

OP posts:
MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 21:45

WaitingForMojo · 28/04/2024 21:29

Do you feel that young people with sex dysphoria should be prescribed puberty blockers, or have to go through puberty as the sex they were born?

I appreciate that’s probably a simplistic question… I guess I’m asking where you stand on puberty blockers and their availability or otherwise as a treatment for young people approaching puberty?

I honest feel very torn over it. I think it would have made my life a lot easier, but it is easy to say that in hindsight, living as I am now without regret. I don't know whether the concerns that it could interfere with a theorised natural resolution sex dysphoria are legitimate or not, but IMO we need research that will try and ascertain that. However, I am angered to see the constant way in which the risks (both known and potential) of puberty blockers are raised voraciously, whilst the risks of not using them are treated as non-existent.

I am also horrified that the legitimate need for more research has been used to justify shutting down the only centre in the country, and thus the withdrawal of all care. NHS England are making grand statements about regional care, but none of them are even close to being ready to open yet, nor are they likely to be for a long time. Very troubled children and their families have simply been abandoned, whilst every political party and newspaper competes over who can demean trans people the most.

OP posts:
CactusBasket · 28/04/2024 22:50

living as I am now without regret.

Are you sure you want to interfere with that delicate balance by attempting phalloplasty?

MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 23:17

CactusBasket · 28/04/2024 22:50

living as I am now without regret.

Are you sure you want to interfere with that delicate balance by attempting phalloplasty?

When I say that I am living without regret, I mean with regards to the use of testosterone and having had a bilateral mastectomy. My feelings regarding my genitalia has not changed, and I would have already had surgery if it were not for unforeseen events.

OP posts:
JuliaPN1978 · 29/04/2024 02:40

MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 23:17

When I say that I am living without regret, I mean with regards to the use of testosterone and having had a bilateral mastectomy. My feelings regarding my genitalia has not changed, and I would have already had surgery if it were not for unforeseen events.

You haven’t mentioned your hysterectomy, or that just an oversight or do you regret that to some degree? I’d imagine there might be a sense of grief there for losing the chance to have children, even if you didn’t think you would ever choose to, if that makes sense?

Terref · 29/04/2024 07:30

What forms of therapy have you tried to address your dysmorphia/dysphoria?

Do you accept that dysphoria/dysmorphia is an emotional/intellectual issue?

CactusBasket · 29/04/2024 08:01

MAW1993 · 28/04/2024 23:17

When I say that I am living without regret, I mean with regards to the use of testosterone and having had a bilateral mastectomy. My feelings regarding my genitalia has not changed, and I would have already had surgery if it were not for unforeseen events.

I get that you still have very negative feelings towards your remaining female characteristics. But all surgery has risks, and this surgery carries a high risk of failure and complications.

I think, in your position, I'd be fobbing my inner voice off with a (permanent) promise to do it 'later, when the techniques have improved.'

(I've had ten years of irritating complications from much more minor surgery in that area. I'm therefore biased.)

MAW1993 · 29/04/2024 14:08

JuliaPN1978 · 29/04/2024 02:40

You haven’t mentioned your hysterectomy, or that just an oversight or do you regret that to some degree? I’d imagine there might be a sense of grief there for losing the chance to have children, even if you didn’t think you would ever choose to, if that makes sense?

I didn't mention that because I had other indications for that anyway. However, no I don't have any regret at all.

OP posts:
MAW1993 · 29/04/2024 15:22

Terref · 29/04/2024 07:30

What forms of therapy have you tried to address your dysmorphia/dysphoria?

Do you accept that dysphoria/dysmorphia is an emotional/intellectual issue?

Via gender services, I was with the Tavistock clinic for 3 years. I never received any hormonal or surgical intervention it was just exploratory therapy. However, the way they approached it was pretty awful to be honest. I've gone into that in greater depth upthread if you want to know more. I then saw a private doctor for a year before being prescribed testosterone, however the aim of those consultations was to determine that my sex dysphoria was persistent, that I understood all the potential risks, and that I was psychologically suitable. Before each type of surgery you also have to be assessed by two psychiatrists to be approved.

Outside of gender services, I saw a social worker for one to one support from the age of about 13 to the age of 18 through CAMHS. I had told her about my sex dysphoria within a year or so of first seeing her. She was actually far superior to the Tavistock at helping me to consider my feelings, any factors that may be related to them, and to try experimenting with different options to see how it went. It was her suggestion that I was open about my attraction to women and stopped worrying about gender conformity. That was actually very valuable, as although it did not resolve my sex dysphoria, it did help to remove doubt about the best course of action.

I don't accept that sex dysphoria is an intellectual issue. I have met plenty of smart and plenty of stupid trans people, like anyone else. Furthermore, in my experience it was clear that the emotional distress was the end product, rather than the cause of the sex dysphoria.

As to the precise cause, no one knows so I cannot say for certain. There have been a number of theories, but none backed up with sufficient evidence to be considered conclusive. My suspicion is that it is multifactorial like many other conditions. In terms of the research there is some evidence for the following factors, however a lot of that evidence is weak:
(1) Genetics (generally) - studies that compare the co-occurrence of sex dysphoria in identical vs. non-identical twins. The effect was found to be significant, but the sample sizes were very small. Furthermore, for some studies there was recruitment through internet forums, which poses a high risk of bias.
(2) Specific mutations - variant phenotypes for androgen receptors and sex steroid enzymes found in higher rates in trans women and trans men (respectively) compared to others of their biological sex. The sample sizes for both these studies were larger so the results are more likely to be significant.
(3) Prenatal testosterone - differences associated with the opposite sex in ring to index finger ratio in trans men and women. Whilst studies have provided evidence for this as a potential factor, the results were quite heterogenous which decreases the confidence in those findings.
(4) Structural changes in the brain - differences associated with the opposite sex have been found in several sexually dimorphic regions of the brain. However, other sexually dimorphic regions have been found to match biological sex. Changes in non-sexually dimorphic regions have also been found between trans and non-trans people.
Some studies have shown these changes to be present in trans people both before and after hormonal treatment, and lacking in control groups possessing comparable hormonal profiles. In other studies, changes were associated with the hormonal treatment itself. Again, sample sizes are an issue for many studies, so it is hard to determine if this is representative for all trans people. Furthermore, associations alone do not determine whether there is a causal relationship.

There may be other research, but those are the ones I'm aware of. I'm happy to look at other studies people may have come across.

OP posts: