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Feminism: chat

Pope Francis calls for universal ban on surrogacy

221 replies

shockeditellyou · 09/01/2024 17:28

https://www.thejournal.ie/pope-francis-calls-for-universal-ban-surrogacy-6267108-Jan2024/

Good for him. Encouragingly, the comments I’ve seen on another site where this was posted are almost entirely supportive of banning surrogacy, which I wasn’t expecting.

Pope Francis calls for universal ban on practice of surrogacy

His comments on the “commercialisation” of pregnancy came as part of a foreign policy address to ambassadors.

https://www.thejournal.ie/pope-francis-calls-for-universal-ban-surrogacy-6267108-Jan2024/

OP posts:
crumblingschools · 10/01/2024 13:13

@NoCloudsAllowed and what about the child, is it okay to treat them simply as a commodity? Not once did you mention the child in your post

StragglyTinsel · 10/01/2024 13:13

It simply wouldn’t matter if the entire thing was all brilliantly about choice and consent and gamboling lambs for the adults involved.

There is a child being commissioned and bought. And that child is not a commodity to be bought and sold because adults want to.

nationallampoons · 10/01/2024 13:16

A uterus isn't an incubator for the rich, infertile or gay men.
Look at how many Ukrainian surrogates had to be rescued because they were commissioned by rich Americans.
It should be banned worldwide!

Catapultaway · 10/01/2024 13:17

How does he believe Jesus was apparently born?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 10/01/2024 13:18

Catapultaway · 10/01/2024 13:17

How does he believe Jesus was apparently born?

I don’t remember the bit where Jesus was removed from his mother at birth.

LoveSandbanks · 10/01/2024 13:19

Newsenmum · 10/01/2024 11:44

I personally agree and think as women we can make informed choices. But then I’m not catholic and also think abortion should be allowed (even though it’s not very nice).

Most catholics, genuinely think that a woman should have autonomy over her own body. I’m Catholic and would stand up for women’s right to choose anywhere. I also think the churches view on same sex marriage is out of date and wrong.
Those that are practicing a religion should be more focussed on their own actions than the way others live their lives.

Neurodiversitydoctor · 10/01/2024 13:39

Pigeotto · 10/01/2024 06:25

I’m not sure why people are so against this? Pregnancy and childbirth are savage on your body so if you could avoid that I don’t understand why you couldn’t pay if everyone was consenting and the child was obviously going to a very wanted home. Unless there’s evidence otherwise

Have you had a baby ?
You cannot consent to be exploited. The whole area is fraught with difficulty.

annahay · 10/01/2024 13:43

@comedycook I suppose I was thinking if cases where the adoption is organised before baby is born, and then they are taken from their mother to live with adopted parents soon after birth. People were discussing how distressing it would be for the baby to be removed from the birth mother. I wondered if they had the same concerns re adoption.

VampireWeekday · 10/01/2024 13:44

Wonderful news!

BassoContinuo · 10/01/2024 13:46

@annahay I do think in an ideal world adoption shouldn’t be needed, but I feel there is a huge difference between a child who is already here / about to be here and can’t stay with their birth family to one that is conceived on demand with separation always being the intent

annahay · 10/01/2024 13:49

BassoContinuo · 10/01/2024 13:46

@annahay I do think in an ideal world adoption shouldn’t be needed, but I feel there is a huge difference between a child who is already here / about to be here and can’t stay with their birth family to one that is conceived on demand with separation always being the intent

I agree with you, definitely. But do we think the same distress re removal from birth mother occurs in adoption, and if so, how do we navigate this in adoption cases and mitigate any damage?

Comedycook · 10/01/2024 13:51

annahay · 10/01/2024 13:49

I agree with you, definitely. But do we think the same distress re removal from birth mother occurs in adoption, and if so, how do we navigate this in adoption cases and mitigate any damage?

Yes I think it does but removal of a baby from its birth mother is generally only done in very extreme circumstances in the UK...where the risk of remaining with the mother is high and we then choose the least awful option..

Comedycook · 10/01/2024 13:53

annahay · 10/01/2024 13:43

@comedycook I suppose I was thinking if cases where the adoption is organised before baby is born, and then they are taken from their mother to live with adopted parents soon after birth. People were discussing how distressing it would be for the baby to be removed from the birth mother. I wondered if they had the same concerns re adoption.

Oh I see. Well yes I think so but there's a difference between making that decision in very difficult circumstances ie...a baby being at risk and actually intentionally engineering that situation.

annahay · 10/01/2024 13:53

@Comedycook I just hope that as a society we can acknowledge that and offer support. Regardless of how lovely a home is, if we believe that adoption is traumatising we should make sure that we mitigate that trauma as much as we can.

crumblingschools · 10/01/2024 13:55

There is a lot more support around adoption and understanding on how being taken away from birth mother can impact an adopted child, including if taken away from birth.

Speaking as a person who was adopted at birth in 70s and now watching a friend go through the process now, there is so much more work/guidance given in respect of the impact on the child than there was when I was adopted

annahay · 10/01/2024 13:58

crumblingschools · 10/01/2024 13:55

There is a lot more support around adoption and understanding on how being taken away from birth mother can impact an adopted child, including if taken away from birth.

Speaking as a person who was adopted at birth in 70s and now watching a friend go through the process now, there is so much more work/guidance given in respect of the impact on the child than there was when I was adopted

That's good to hear that there's more in place. Thank you for sharing your experience.

Comedycook · 10/01/2024 14:03

annahay · 10/01/2024 13:53

@Comedycook I just hope that as a society we can acknowledge that and offer support. Regardless of how lovely a home is, if we believe that adoption is traumatising we should make sure that we mitigate that trauma as much as we can.

I agree. I think it should always be centered around what's best for the child. It's not something which exists to provide children for people who want one.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 10/01/2024 14:04

CurlewKate · 10/01/2024 09:55

Well, a stopped clock is right twice a day!

Not if it’s digital.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 10/01/2024 14:07

ToddlerMumma · 10/01/2024 11:56

This would also mean gay women can have their own babies but gay men can't. Is that right?

Yes , you are correct. It’s the lack of a womb that’s the problem.

TheFastestSquirrel · 10/01/2024 14:08

WandaWonder · 10/01/2024 07:11

I don't and will never agree on surrogacy under any circumstances so don't disagree but will they change their view on abortion?

It is alright for them to pick and choose when it suits

Doesn't everyone "pick and choose"? That's why we don't all have the same opinion about everything.

DontBeAPrickDarren · 10/01/2024 14:10

ToddlerMumma · 10/01/2024 11:56

This would also mean gay women can have their own babies but gay men can't. Is that right?

Is this the first example of lesbian privilege?

viques · 10/01/2024 14:10

LifeofBrienne · 10/01/2024 08:19

Doesn’t the Catholic church have a history of removing babies from unmarried mothers? It seems inappropriate for the Pope to comment on surrogacy without reflecting on that.

Edited

Yes they do, which in some ways ironically means that the Catholic Church has a deeper knowledge of the damage that is caused both to babies and their mothers by this abhorrent use of womens bodies as human incubators .

BodyKeepingScore · 10/01/2024 14:18

whyisntanelephantblue · 10/01/2024 12:58

I can't have kids, my body cannot cope. It's SO very nice to see this nutjob telling me another woman can't have a baby for me should I choose to be a Mother

The Catholic religion is toxic. Please don't listen to it

Not a Catholic. And not religious at all. Still think surrogacy is an abhorrent exploitation of women. You have no right to subject another woman to pregnancy just because you can't, much less of a right to take a newborn baby from its mother and causing all the attachment issues that come with that. Your body being unable to carry a pregnancy doesn't give you the right to ignore those things.

StepIntoChristmasAgain · 10/01/2024 14:37

A friend ('Gina') had a very aggressive cancer at a young age, resulting in full hysterectomy, no chance of ever having a child of her own. She made relative peace with that, certainly had no expectations that she could ever buy a baby from etsy.

Her very close friend ('Emma'), having already had 2 children herself, who had grown up to be young adults, offered to carry a baby for Gina. She knew and accepted full risk. Her husband and children were also aware of the risks and what was involved, and were in complete support.

Fwiw, no money ever changed hands.

The pregnancy was a smooth, healthy one and the baby was born. Gina and her husband were of course overjoyed. Emma and her family were equally overjoyed.

The two families are super close. Emma has a particularly special bond with the baby, but not in an over-stepping way. She is, for the sake of another term, like a godmother to the baby. They have since gone on to do this again, providing a sibling to the baby.

It's certainly not the same story for every surrogacy. But surely this example shows that a universal ban is not in the interests of everyone. Women should have agency over their own bodies, albeit under very tight guidance to stop the exploitation, commercialisation etc.

Soubriquet · 10/01/2024 14:38

Before I had my own kids, as a teen I offered to be a surrogate for my gay friend. After I had my kids, I’m so glad I never went through with it.

I am disabled now because of pregnancy and birth. My entire life changed and not just because I became a parent.

Also, watch that newborn baby. They only really calm down with their mothers to begin with. All they know is the smell of her. The sound of her heartbeat. The sound of her voice. They KNOW this before they are even born. They have gone through something traumatic (birth) and will seek comfort to something that is familiar. Yes they eventually get that same comfort from dad and other adults but at first it’s all about their mother.