So... women being top of the charts is... wait for it... bad for feminism.

[JadziaD]

This article has annoyed me so much. Here are all the reasons why, apparently, female pop starts, particularly ones at the top of the charts, are BAD for feminism. :

1 because these top pop stars are YOUNG women, it's because they're "easier" to market, so it's excluding older women. BAD feminism.

2 Thes women are signed by major labels. The argument here is fuzzy, but I think it is basically that they're easy to market and the labels throw lots of money at it so that's why they're successful (oh, with the implication that labels like women because they're more biddable).

3 this girl power and empowerment is FAKE and also, it makes young girls think that everything is FINE when it's not.

4 My favourite: female pop wave could be "fuel for misogynists".

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/053a453c-4358-49f6-8444-a9d87e1195b1?shareToken=cb1ec8df09ec501689cc6b631e0e46a8

@User135644

personally I quite like TS but she is also an incredibly adept business woman. She comes from an upper middle class background with parents in senior fiance roles that have her every opportunity to pursue her talents. Taylor and the team around her are marketing geniuses.

I wonder to what extent the marketability of a song is considered before release. If an introspective song about the meaning of life won't sell would she consider doing it? Her current lyrics sell.In the lorry load and she fill up stadia easily so from a business perspective why change?

in general do women have an opportunity to expand their material to be more poetic or abstract e.g. Blur and Oasis in the 90s or if it's not going to sell will the industry not touch it?

In terms of clothing I have seen Ed Sheeran and he can wear the clothes he wears on stage walking down a high street during the day without anyone noricing. The same can't be applied to a lot of female artists where there is pressure to be glam (if not sexually provocative). Is this fair!

TS song Look What You Made Me Do was about Kanye West’s arrogant claim that she owes her success to him, so it’s not all love songs.

How is it a victory for feminism? There were female stars of the stage (some singers) long before women could even vote, and there’s constantly been famous women singers from that time on.

It’s good for those particular women to be at the top of the charts, but I can’t see how it’s good for all women.

(I’m not saying it’s bad for feminism, by the way, just that I don’t see how it’s good. I also agree with the rest of your post.)

I think there is a still a lot of misogyny directed to alien artists possibly not all of it explicit. My FIL (elderly) maintains music was better in the 60s and the Beatles and Stones will never be bettered with female artists being vacuous. He also comments more on younger women s figures rather than music but hey ho.

TS has had a number of spurs on her artistic credibility by men.

Taylor should just keep doing what's she's doing but was thinking more broadly with regards to others. Taylor did have a song on her last album "You're on Your Own Kid" which was a terrifically crafted song with a strong message. She can be more broad, if she wasn't she wouldn't be as successful.

It's good to hear music that appeals to people on a more personal level with deep messages. Sam Fender for example has done this really well and is very popular.

Yes there are lots.

The Man - about sexism
The Last Great American Dynasty - about a real life American socialite who used to own a house Taylor swift later bought
Blank Space - a funny take on how the media portrays her, and one of her most successful songs.
Shake it Off - another one of her most successful songs
Soon You'll Get Better - about her mother having cancer
Majorie - about her grandmother
Epiphany - about covid
Bigger Than the Whole Sky
My tears ricochet - about losing her masters to Scooter Braun
Anti hero - about her own self doubt
You're on your own, kid - about her career
You need to calm down - about online trolling/bullying
Obviously it is still a small percentage of her massive number of songs.

Interestingly, Folklore, the first album she released during covid, was recorded without her record label knowing. They only found out a few hours before it was released online.
And she's re-recorded all her earlier albums so she now owns all her work.
So while she is clearly very good at marketing herself, I guess it's debatable how much she is controlled by others around her. Of course, her having control is only possible because of her previous success.

It's not a "win" for feminism, but it certainly isn't bad either and that's what annoys me. Unless it's a slam dunk, perfect success, it's pooh poohed or downplayed.

Yes re women having to be attractive etc etc, there's still work to do. But I can assure you that when dd is listening to these artists on repeat (and she does) and she knows that the songs she likes are also the songs that are at the top of the charts and are all sung by women, it absolutely helps her to feel like she has options.

It's amazing how often girls at a very young age notice the lack of female representation- dd isnt the only child I know who commented on the lack of female characters in the books she was reading/TV shows she was watching etc - but as they get older they just get so used to it. I am thrilled that when it comes to music that might not always be the case.

Would be good to see some of these female artists actually winning awards now though.....

You're right, @HardcoreLadyType - I didn't want to over complicated the post, it's a victory in terms of quantity and also some of the women have much more control of their careers than might have been possible in the past. My point is it's one of those small incremental victories, not the winning of the war iyswim? Things are getting better but they're not good enough!

It's not a "win" for feminism, but it certainly isn't bad either and that's what annoys me. Unless it's a slam dunk, perfect success, it's pooh poohed or downplayed.

Yes, that's it.

If you actually read Miki Berenyi’s book her comment makes sense. She experienced a lot of overt sexism in her career and since she’s still in the industry no doubt still sees some of it. Some of her account in the book names men in the industry and what they do and it’s pretty disgusting really.

The top selling female artists still have to be extraordinarily attractive to get where they are going. Is there the same pressure for men to be that attractive to become famous? Ed Sheehan suggests otherwise. That’s the obvious battle I guess, and that’s without having much knowledge of other issues which could be suggestive of a double standard too.

"So the key question about power in the music industry is who controls and influences those companies? Do any publish gender pay gap stats or proportion of women in senior roles?"

The majors publish annually as they are legally obliged to do.

www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/heres-what-the-three-major-music-companies-pay-women-compared-to-men-in-the-uk/

I think Adele is attractive, but not extraordinarily attractive and she has enormous success. Also she has become more glamorous the more successful she became, rather than the glamour feeding into her success. Also people have mentioned Billie Eilish and I think her success is mainly to do with her game-changing vocal style and ‘cool’ artiness rather than her looks.

Would be good to see some of these female artists actually winning awards now though.....

Are you joking? The likes of Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, Lana Del Rey have won numerous awards. There’s no shortage of female artists winning awards.

I agree that Taylor Swift is a very, very shrewd businesswoman. It’s no wonder she has just surpassed $1 billion net worth.

The amazing and much missed Sinead O'Connor's letter to Miley Cyrus is still so pertinent today I think..

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/03/sinead-o-connor-open-letter-miley-cyrus

That's because people don't see people as the age they are

It's a strange phenomena. So people still refer to Prince Harry as young, despite him being 39 . And there was a comment from Vernon Kay, where people called him a "young presenter" and he responded along the lines of "I'm definitely not young, I'm nearly 50!"
People think of Ant and Dec as a young duo, despite being 48 etc.

People remember the image they were first presented with I think. These people grew up with us, but we remember them from 20+ years ago and don't compute that they're as old as we are.

*Shirley

Agreed.

It’s nonsense to suggest that the only way a female artist can be successful is by being a scantily clad sex symbol.

For every artist who fits this description - Taylor Swift, Miles Cyrus, Lady Gaga etc. - there’s a successful female artist who does not: Adele, Lana Del Rey, Lily Allen, Amy Winehouse, Florence and The Machine, Kate Bush, Sheryl Crow, Kate Nash, Chrissie Hynde, Kelly Clarkson, Celine Dion, Alicia Keys…

He’s talking out of his ass, and quoting his wife to look like he listens to The Wimmin.

Taylor Swift is in control of her career in an extraordinary way, and all power too her.

It’s not all “young” women, that’s changed in an extraordinary manner over the past 40 years. Cyndi Lauper was 30 when Girls Just Wanna Have Fun came out and she had to fight tooth and nail to get it made because she was “too old” to be in pop.

Seeing successful women of a huge range of ages is good for young women, with the old adage you can only be what you see. There’s a long way to go in so many ways - cult of youth and beauty, endemic sexism in the industry and society at large - but the success of women in pop is not a bad thing by any measure.

Will Hodgekinson can go boil his head until his “hot take” melts, the clickbaiting idiot.

I imagine Will Hodgkinson’s next article is going to be him berating the female-directed female-led Barbie Movie for being the highest grossing film in 2023…

I would describe myself as a feminist, but find this whole ‘looks’ element of it very muddling and tend to go around in circles in my own mind.

I am average in looks (perhaps slightly above average?) and generally pretty low-maintenance but I can look striking on a good day or when I ‘make an effort’.

If I am going for an interview or making a presentation, I will put on my form-fitting jersey dress in a strong colour. Totally decent, un-revealing, knee-length and made by a well-known retailer of women’s workwear, but it makes my figure look good. I am aware that it will appeal to both men and women on the panel or in the audience, but for totally different reasons. I will also wear more makeup than usual.

Am I simply trying to project a professional image and therefore feminist?
Am I using my looks (such as they are) as currency and therefore un-feminist?
Or am I using any means I can to achieve my goals (which have a social purpose) and therefore the end justifies the means?
Or is this the one tiny advantage that women have in a man’s world and it’s ok to make the most of it?

Thoughts welcome!

It's not a very well written article but I kind of get the point. It's like all the "girl power" stuff in the 90s / 2000s. Female singers were marketed at independent/powerful etc. but they were just as much controlled by men and packaged for the male gaze as ever.

This is kinda what I meant.

Strong, independent women but they usually had to be hot as well to make it to the top.

I don’t think anyone could have described Alanis Morrisette, Adele or Amy Winehouse as “hot” when they achieved enormous success in the 1990s and 2000s.

For some of them it is forced but lots of women love getting the attention wearing provocative clothing. They enjoy provoking a response.

I see it with my own daughters and my daughter’s friends. I’d love to be able to look as amazing as they do in their clothes but they are open about doing it because it gets them attention from men and women. My daughter is a lesbian. We are sexual beings especially in our twenties before we want sleep more than sex. Hell I did my own version at their age. Provocative was just a little less provocative back then.