Family court decision removing child from primary carer

[Watermelonbathbomb]

I just saw this in the Guardian and was quite shocked: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2023/dec/16/uk-court-removes-daughter-from-care-of-mother-who-disputed-use-of-expert. From the write-up, it seems to me that the decision is massively unfair. I was also surprised to read, on googling the expert, that they have been sanctioned for malpractice in the past. Having know women who have struggled tremendously during custody battles and having thought I might have to go there myself, it resonated. Was wondering if anyone else had seen it and their thoughts? Thanks.

Quite.

I would have had faith in the family courts too, until I experienced them . Interestingly the person who warned me how flawed the family courts are was a very experienced judge

I also know someone who was accused of making up her concerns about sexual abuse of her daughters by dad. Who was told his hugely concerning behaviour was just "a more relaxed parenting style " (cafcass). Dad claimed it was alienation and wanted full custody. 50/50 contact awarded and mum given a huge telling off by the judge. 8 years later the older daughter revealed the appalling extent of continued abuse to a therapist. Both girls are really broken.

Daffodilandtulip I am sorry for your experience. It seems like the system really does need fixing: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66531409 It also just seems so unfair that one side can be represented and the other not. The stakes are so high.

I thought the research coming out is quite clear that if parental alienation exists at all it is abusive men who accuse mothers of it or do it themselves. It is astounding to read these comments in fwr that assume fairness of investigation and judgement of courts. These family courts will always allow contact with men who have been violent in front of them and sometimes who are offenders.

This case is absolutely awful. The poor child who was moved against her will. I was so careful until dd was 12, I forced her to keep seeing her dad against her wishes, and he was emotionally abusive to her. When she was 12, I paid for therapy to allow her to make her own choice and she has had no contact since. How horrifying that a secondary aged child can be forced to live with a parent they don’t wish to.

The mother’s biggest mistake was not somehow finding the £ for representation. I began representing myself in my divorce and I could see how that was going to go. Courts are not friendly to self litigants. In the end I got what I needed as a result of paying for a solicitor.

Of course there will be much more to this but there is no way this will be in the interests of the child, who is old enough to say what she wants.

The psychotherapist sounds completely unprofessional and biased. Just so terrible .

Having been through family courts myself, followed this fascinating podcast (https://professionallyembarrassing.podbean.com/) and been alongside a large number of other women going through court who were on my Freedom Programme course I am amazed by the number of harmful reversal of custody decisions that continue to be made - primarily due to parental alienation allegations.

And strange seeing parental alienation used as a justification on posts here when even the UN acknowledged 'that the use of the unfounded and unscientific concept, is highly gendered.'

'Despite these grave consequences “parental alienation” and related pseudo concepts are embedded and endorsed in legal systems across different jurisdictions, including amongst evaluators tasked with reporting to family courts on the best interest of the child.'
https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/06/1138057

My ex tried very hard to alienate dd against me. I think it’s much harder than people realise to alienate a child against the other parent. Children can see who the crazy / abusive parent is, even if they can’t articulate why they will instinctively feel less safe with them.

I have zero faith in the whole industry of social services and professionals around the family court.

Its about balance of harm. Like when children change care giver when they come into care from parents who have caused them harm. They dont want to come into care but equally their parents have or are causing them harm

In this case, the mother is abusive by causing the child harm. Luckily the other parent is on the scene otherwise the child could have ended up in care.

I think it’s much harder than people realise to alienate a child against the other parent.

Absolutely this.

I went through the family court system in the early 90s. I was a 8yo but still remember recognising when I was supposed to say. As it happens I chose the option which was most detrimental to me but would cause the least upset to my dad cos I knew my mum would love me anyway. Mum lost the court battle but to no avail - within a year I just refused to comply with the court order.

Anyone who thinks that family court knows best is absolutely batshit. Their presumption that dislike of one parent means parental alienation has occurred causes children who have been actually abused are placed with theirs abusers. Batshit.

My mum 100% used parental alienation.

My mum physically, sexually, and emotionally abused me, but brainwashed me into thinking that my dad (who was largely absent as he worked abroad for most of the year, but was a wonderful dad when he was around) was a monster who would hurt me and never let us see each other again. I can't even describe the terrible things she did. I was completely parentified from a young age so I felt obligated to care for her and be the 'man' of the house.

My mum wasn't allowed inside his bedroom so she made me go inside instead and do things like steal and cut up his cigarettes, or break into his desk and go through his papers looking for information on the divorce.

She absolutely tried her hardest to alienate me from him.

Then when she kicked me out at 15 (due to dialling 999 when the sexual abuse from her boyfriend got too bad) it was my dad who swooped in to rescue me when I'd been a nightmare to him for years.

Parental alienation absolutely exists, I can't say how common it is, but it's completely disrespectful to actual child abuse survivors like myself who have personally experienced it.

Is anyone denying that PA exists, though? I think it's just this one case people are sceptical about. We'll never have all the details anyway, so it's all a stab in the dark.

"I thought the research coming out is quite clear that if parental alienation exists at all it is abusive men who accuse mothers of it or do it themselves."

"I think it’s much harder than people realise to alienate a child against the other parent. Children can see who the crazy / abusive parent is, even if they can’t articulate why they will instinctively feel less safe with them."

It's pretty clear some posters don't believe that PA exists.

I absolutely believe a parent can put a child in the position of thinking their other parent is bad.

I do not believe that the courts or social services are any good at all at finding the people who are genuinely doing this, and I think they throw around PA as a nuke button to end cases so they can close them, get a judgement, and move onto a less annoying aspect of their caseload that doesn't require as much critical thinking.

My own mother did her best to alienate me and DSis from my stepfather and father. She got full residency for my sister (the case took so long I was actually 18 by the time it got anywhere so I moved in with my father 400 miles away), and DSis ended up in care 6 months later when my mother lost her rag and I wasn't there to protect her that time. The courts and social services let this happen, believed my mother completely when she accused my stepfather of DV and SA, and they couldn't spot what was really happening from a mile off even though DSis and I actually told them everything two years earlier; we were not believed. I do not trust them to make good decisions.

People who believe one party is "all good/right/worthy of having the children" and one party is "all bad/wrong/unworthy of having the children" and who believe their job is to identify which is which have no place doing the jobs in the family courts or social services. No human being is absolutely infallible and if you dig for long enough you'll find flaws in even Jesus.

Unfortunately, a lot of them seem to subscribe to the viewpoint that they need to decide whether mum/dad is good/evil, and they seem to make those decisions based on their own projections, unresolved traumas, and whatever feels they get from the short amount of time they spend face to face with the people involved instead of following the actual evidence and interpreting it correctly.

My mother, like others with certain personality disorders, was an expert at reeling people in and getting them on-side even though the evidence didn't even slightly match what she was saying.

I used to support women going to court in domestic abuse cases. The judge here talks about the father seeming calmer... the problem is that it's a perfectly normal response to be fairly distraught at the idea of only having supervised visits to your child. If you actually don't care about your child and only about inflicting harm on the other party, you might well come across as the calm and reasonable one. So who seems most calm and reasonable isn't a very good measure of anything. I'm not saying that was definitely the case here but certainly is common from my experience.

I'm pleased PA was discovered and dealt with; it certainly wasn't in my case when I left my abusive ex-husband. The courts decided 50/50 for our boys who were just 3 and 6 at the time. I had up until that point always been the main carer, having been coerced into giving up a successful teaching career. My boys had literally become my world as my ex had stripped everything else away from me. He stopped me from seeing my family and friends.
More recently, this vile narc was awarded majority custody having scared them both absolutely s*less and telling them time and again "I didn't love them" etc.
It was ALL about punishing me for daring to leave him.
In my experience, Cafcass and the family courts went for the line of favouring the father at all costs; the bias honestly was an absolute disgrace and travesty and not in best interests of the children.

Agreed. It's baffling that a mother is penalised because she shows emotion in these circumstances yet I have heard so many similar stories

@Annon00 I agree and experienced this (see my story above). I was pulled into the family courts yet again by my abusive ex as he wanted full custody of our two sons. This was for no other reason than to hurt me; ex told me this before I left him.
On this court date my newborn baby (the boys' half-sister with my now husband) was just five days old. I was not permitted to postpone nor was I given any breaks for breastfeeding etc, despite two full days of hearings.
I was advised by my legal team not to talk myself because if I got upset or emotional this would go against me. I did not say one word throughout.
Ex "won" majority custody and remained entirely emotionless throughout. The courts thought this was what a "good father" looks like.

I read Karen Woodall’s book (Putting Children First. manual for separated parents) years ago and found it invaluable, very balanced good advice about hoe to parent as a separated family.

I just searched Karen Woodall again and there seems to have been lots of bad news about her, so many I am wondering if she is the same woman as according to the Internet Woodall has shown a vindictive streak to anyone who criticises her (including the mum in the article who has complained about her).

I saw a similar case where a judge threatened the mother with prison as they started seeing her as a court time waster but time, unfortunately, proved her right: he was violent but the court didn’t believe her until dad ended up sending the kid to A&E with a few broken bones eventually but, before then nobody believed the mum’s evidence as he always showed himself as a polite, composed and reasonable individual at a time his ex wife (and firmer victim) was almost having a breakdown in court out of being sitting in the same room with her abuser.

I do really hope this case does not end up having the same outcome.

It's not up to the courts to leave a child with the mother solely because a woman can do no wrong

It doesn't and shouldn't work that way

And unless you have knowledge of every aspect you can 'yeah but what about' all you want does not make it to be what you want it to be

@WandaWonder I agree but likewise, it's not OK for abusive fathers to be given majority custody as happened to my sons.

@WandaWonder of course but many of us are expressing concerns at how the “system” works. And it’s absolutely true that a self litigant is at massive disadvantage in court - the court system is so outdated. I got told off for not using the correct legal language on a form.

I was advised by my legal team not to talk myself because if I got upset or emotional this would go against me. I did not say one word throughout.

This is something I have seen time and time again, the mum unable to protect her children because if the judge thinks she is blocking contact or against it, they will favour the father interests over those of the children no matter how little the involvement or how abusive the father.

Parental alienation is definitely a thing, I've seen it in action. But I'm not convinced that it's nearly as common as it's alleged to be. Not nearly as common as other forms of child abuse.

I had to hire an 'expert' for a court case. I met with him in his office and after going over the case he said unfortunately he'd be going against me as the other side was paying his fee.

I told him I was paying the fee and he changed his 'professional' opinion right there and then.

You can pay anyone to say anything.

This is terrifying.