Page 2 | Help needed to explain why angry men are scary.

FictionalCharacter · 02/10/2023 13:59

psed · 02/10/2023 08:51

Thanks for your replies. I definitely did make a massive mistake and was owning up to it, he had every right to feel angry. It was not directed at me, he was expressing his anger by gesturing and the tone of his voice, he wasn’t shouting. I equally have felt angry and acted in the same way as him.

I also know my previous experiences make it difficult for me to understand whether I am safe or not (and yes, I am having therapy to address my issues).

I guess my question is not about abuse in relationships per say, but how can I explain to a man that he has the potential to present as intimidating even if he doesn’t mean to, when he (and I) know he is a safe person. Just like I feel scared of a group of teenagers on the street, and him defending them saying they’re just kids hanging out and having fun, whereas I feel unsafe.

How can I explain why and help him understand that I, and probably a lot of other women and girls, feel like I do?

Edited

Again - because men kill women. Men seriously injure women. No woman can be sure that any particular man is “safe”. Your partner says he is. So did many of the men who went on to attack their partners. Men don’t feel at risk in the same way, so they don’t get it.

If you made a mistake and were apologising, why was he so angry? I can understand him being angry if you did something wrong deliberately or refused to apologise. But aggression towards someone who is apologising is wrong. To me it shows that his emotions were out of control, and that really is frightening.

The best way for him to demonstrate that he’s “safe” is to control his anger better, not to be frighteningly angry at you and then tell you that you’re the meanie for being scared and suggesting he isn’t harmless.

Titerama · 03/10/2023 08:01

This is an interesting one.

I’ve had a similar conversation with my DH about when he shouts, how awful it feels.

He was really affronted and didn’t accept that the higher volume and deeper pitch of a male voice meant it was inherently more alarming.

Dogsitterwoes · 03/10/2023 08:13

If you'd been bitten by a dog in the past, and another dog starts barking near you because it is angry, then of course it's going to trigger fear.

Is he too thick to understand that one?

I don't like his reaction. It's all about him feeling butt-hurt that you reacted in that way, rather than feeling sad/sorry that your past has left you with this type of trauma and understanding/supporting you.

AlisonDonut · 03/10/2023 08:17

how can I explain to a man that he has the potential to present as intimidating even if he doesn’t mean to, when he (and I) know he is a safe person

You don't know he is a safe person.

All murderers and abusers have a first victim.

The only way you can show him is not to hang around waiting to be attacked.

Hereforsummer · 03/10/2023 08:21

It sounds like you have explained it to him fine, he is just choosing not to see your point. I could sort of accept that he knows he would not hurt you, but to say you should not feel nervous of a group of teenagers is taking it a step too far. Of course they are probably just harmless teenagers and no threat to you, but it should be obvious for anyone to see there is a potential threat there.

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 09:00

OP I do understand, we second guess ourselves. We are instinctively going to be afraid of a larger, stronger person, and if there's history of trauma then that may also trigger past memories.

That said, I am still wondering about your relationship, and why your instinctive response was fear.

https://archive.org/details/giftoffearsurviv00debe_0

The gift of fear : Gavin De Becker : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

https://archive.org/details/giftoffearsurviv00debe_0

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 09:01

Hereforsummer · 03/10/2023 08:21

It sounds like you have explained it to him fine, he is just choosing not to see your point. I could sort of accept that he knows he would not hurt you, but to say you should not feel nervous of a group of teenagers is taking it a step too far. Of course they are probably just harmless teenagers and no threat to you, but it should be obvious for anyone to see there is a potential threat there.

Yes.

ArabellaScott · 03/10/2023 09:04

he felt annoyed and upset that I thought he was capable of hurting me (in that split second moment of being confronted by an angry man). He was particularly put out because he would never physically hurt me

It's not all about him.

I'd expect a partner to grasp if I had a fear, even an irrational one, and be sympathetic. Did he not have any compassion for your response?

whattttttodo · 03/10/2023 09:06

Men attack women daily. Of course an angry man is scary.

Incidentally sometime my partner gets angry. I've never once felt scared because even if he's angry he doesn't direct his anger at me.

You shouldn't feel scared of him you are both equal and should be treated with respect regardless of what you do.

EmmaEmerald · 03/10/2023 09:10

Titerama · 03/10/2023 08:01

This is an interesting one.

I’ve had a similar conversation with my DH about when he shouts, how awful it feels.

He was really affronted and didn’t accept that the higher volume and deeper pitch of a male voice meant it was inherently more alarming.

This has been my experience

they just don't get it

CurlewKate · 03/10/2023 09:13

I vividly remember the day I was tussling with my son about something- all very lightheated-I was trying to hold him away from my chocolate and we were both laughing. And I suddenly realised that he was stronger than me and could have easily just taken it from me. For a fraction of a second I was scared. Of my own sweet loving teenage beautiful boy.

CurlewKate · 03/10/2023 09:24

I don't know if anyone reads Dorothy L Sayers, but I was struck by this extract from Busman's Honeymoon. Peter is angry because someone has shaken his vintage port! "
"The last word sounded to Miss Twitterton painfully like an oath.
"O-o-oh! I do hope he won't be violent."
"Violent?" said Harriet, half amused and half angry. "Oh, I shouldn't think so."
But alarm is infectious...and much-tried men have been known to vent their exasperation upon their
[Pg 330]
servants. The two women clung together, waiting for the explosion.
"Well," said the distant voice, "all I can say is, Bunter, don't let it happen again.... All right.... Good God, man, you needn't tell me that ...of course you didn't.... We'd better go and view the bodies."
The sounds died away, and the women breathed more freely. The dreadful menace of male violence lifted its shadow from the house."

That line "the dreadful menace of male violence lifted its shadow from the house" is so chilling.

Thisistyresome · 03/10/2023 09:34

Point out to him it he had A friend who was a heavy weight (is that the top category) boxer and got angry with him, would he actually feel no fear? Regardless of believing his friend would not lash out, the knowledge of the capability for harm would surely cause him to fear the situation. There is a reason the larger and scarier you look you need to be more careful about expressing anger, conversely tiny people often given a lot of slack in behavioural terms when loosing it.

BristolBlueGlasses · 03/10/2023 09:43

how can I explain to a man that he has the potential to present as intimidating even if he doesn’t mean to

All decent men will know this without having it explained to them. If he doesn't know already how an angry man can intimidate a woman then he is a person to be avoided.

FictionalCharacter · 03/10/2023 14:27

CurlewKate · 03/10/2023 09:13

I vividly remember the day I was tussling with my son about something- all very lightheated-I was trying to hold him away from my chocolate and we were both laughing. And I suddenly realised that he was stronger than me and could have easily just taken it from me. For a fraction of a second I was scared. Of my own sweet loving teenage beautiful boy.

Yep. Because he’s a man. He’s way stronger than you and could overpower you in a second- just as most men can easily overpower most women. The fact that most of them say “but I wouldn’t” is irrelevant. The potential is there and we rely on them being decent enough not to use it.

Gillstuck · 03/10/2023 14:38

Would he be more scared of being trapped in a corner with a small Jack Russell terrier or an XL Bully type dog? Both could give him a painful bite but the bigger dog could easily kill him. Women can view men like the bigger dog in terms of the danger their extra strength gives them.

PurpleBugz · 05/10/2023 09:16

This is a concerning question. Men know why women are scared of them. If he is offended you had a moment of fear then run away from that relationship it's a massive red flag!

I've got an abuse history too. I thought I'd conquered it and had a nice relationship but just had left over fear from my past. Nope. Next partner turned out to be violent too. All chalked up to my issues because of my history.

I've since had a relationship with a lazy selfish arsehole of a man. My history was never relevant, never commented on by him and I hardly thought about it because i wasn't scared of him. He is not abusive and I've never had a moment of fear around him because despite being a selfish lazy arse he clearly didn't feel superior to me/women. He doesn't shout- honestly men don't need to shout!! Think he shouted once at his kid who wasn't watching and nearly crossed a road without looking. He was scared and shouted at her but he wasn't scary because he doesn't have that dominating streak to him.

Does not matter how angry a man is they don't need to shout around women even if they are not shouting directly at women. Or that calm 'fighting anger' voice they do. That's just as bad.

minipie · 05/10/2023 09:21

Gillstuck · 03/10/2023 14:38

Would he be more scared of being trapped in a corner with a small Jack Russell terrier or an XL Bully type dog? Both could give him a painful bite but the bigger dog could easily kill him. Women can view men like the bigger dog in terms of the danger their extra strength gives them.

Exactly

Ask him to imagine being in a room with a large, powerful unleashed dog growling and barking at him.

Even if the owner has told him the dog won’t hurt anyone, he would probably still find it quite scary.

Because he knows that even nice dogs snap sometimes and can do serious damage if they do.

uncertainalice · 05/10/2023 09:29

The fact that he got angry enough to scare you is not good. The fact that he then got annoyed and upset about you being scared is worse...that's where the manipulation is in an abusive relationship, the unwillingness to accept your feelings about their behaviour and the subsequent attempt to reframe their behaviour and those feelings as your fault.

IslaWinds · 05/10/2023 09:33

psed · 01/10/2023 21:52

I have a new partner (less than a year) and I saw him angry for the first time recently. Which was fair enough, I had made a mistake and was apologising. He couldn’t understand how in the moment of his anger I felt fundamentally scared of being hurt (I’m a woman, and I have experienced assault before).

I explained this to him later, but he felt annoyed and upset that I thought he was capable of hurting me (in that split second moment of being confronted by an angry man). He was particularly put out because he would never physically hurt me, and never has done to anyone, which I believe.

I couldn’t quite articulate or explain why I would respond in the way of being scared because in his eyes he is “not all men” and wouldn’t hurt me. How can I help him understand/see that I know he is a safe person to be around, and it is not a reflection of him, but the automatic fear response in the presence of an angry man is justified?

It’s called PTSD.
Don’t get into all women are afraid of angry men, or that it is automatic in women in general.

You have PTSD from your past history of being assaulted and so anger will trigger the fear response in you. PTSD also makes your threshold much lower, so your reaction may seem an over-reaction compared to someone who has never experienced physical assault.

theduchessofspork · 05/10/2023 09:43

Lots of men like this -
Caitlin Moran has a great explanation you could show him in one of her books

But basically - it’s not personal to him, it’s just your survival mode kicking in.

male upper body strength is close to 50% stronger than women, and they bigger and heavier - that is enough to trigger a woman’s fight flight response. Add that on top of millennia of male violence against women - a man’s right to hit his wife was protected in law until not so long ago, plus endless news about domestic violence levels, and women being abducted and attacked.. it’s just common sense

Pinkglobelamp · 05/10/2023 09:45

CurlewKate · 03/10/2023 09:24

I don't know if anyone reads Dorothy L Sayers, but I was struck by this extract from Busman's Honeymoon. Peter is angry because someone has shaken his vintage port! "
"The last word sounded to Miss Twitterton painfully like an oath.
"O-o-oh! I do hope he won't be violent."
"Violent?" said Harriet, half amused and half angry. "Oh, I shouldn't think so."
But alarm is infectious...and much-tried men have been known to vent their exasperation upon their
[Pg 330]
servants. The two women clung together, waiting for the explosion.
"Well," said the distant voice, "all I can say is, Bunter, don't let it happen again.... All right.... Good God, man, you needn't tell me that ...of course you didn't.... We'd better go and view the bodies."
The sounds died away, and the women breathed more freely. The dreadful menace of male violence lifted its shadow from the house."

That line "the dreadful menace of male violence lifted its shadow from the house" is so chilling.

That is a wonderful quote. Sayers is one of my heroes.

theduchessofspork · 05/10/2023 09:46

theduchessofspork · 05/10/2023 09:43

Lots of men like this -
Caitlin Moran has a great explanation you could show him in one of her books

But basically - it’s not personal to him, it’s just your survival mode kicking in.

male upper body strength is close to 50% stronger than women, and they bigger and heavier - that is enough to trigger a woman’s fight flight response. Add that on top of millennia of male violence against women - a man’s right to hit his wife was protected in law until not so long ago, plus endless news about domestic violence levels, and women being abducted and attacked.. it’s just common sense

And this is from the POV of women who haven’t experience violence.. never mind if you have

BigPussyEnergy · 05/10/2023 09:50

I was going to mention The Gift of Fear and I see that someone has linked it above. Your body is recognising the danger and telling you this isn’t ok. You may consciously “know” that he would never physically attack you, but your subconscious is feeling the fear because of course you never actually know that. His demeanour is threatening and alarming and your body is feeling fearful to keep you safe from potential harm.

FWIW I split with my XP of 10 years due to his anger issues. 95% of the time he was absolutely lovely to me. But when he got angry something flipped in him, and his demeanour totally changed.

He swore blind he’d never hurt me and that I was overreacting due to a previous assault by an ex, but the fact that he still behaved in an intimidating way, saying really nasty things, kicking furniture etc meant that I never felt truly safe around him. Even if he got cross with someone else, eg in traffic, or because he couldn’t open a jar or something and muttered the c word, it was in such a vicious way that I would feel shaky and sick. His anger felt unpredictable and scary.

Other men haven’t made me feel like that. My XH of 15 years never made me feel unsafe, and my male friend was getting cross in the car the other day and called his SatNav a cunt when it wouldn’t do what he wanted, but it didn’t make me feel anything other than a bit sorry for him at his frustration!

I think my body knew that my XP had the potential to be violent (in fact, I did know it, as he’d talked about hitting other men - always with some heroic justification of course) in the past. He was adamant he’d never hit a woman though. I didn’t want to wait around any longer just in case.

Newestname002 · 05/10/2023 09:58

@psed

I couldn’t quite articulate or explain why I would respond in the way of being scared because in his eyes he is “not all men” and wouldn’t hurt me.

I suppose the last time you were in a similar situation you felt safe in the relationship until you experienced fear/implied or actual violence in that relationship. Your now partner may well be angry that you felt unsafe with him when he was exhibiting anger but his actions are just triggering the memories of how you were made to feel in the past.

It just takes a moment to lose control and be someone you're not the majority of the time. It's a shame he can't put himself in your shoes for a moment and see how intimidating it is to be in the vicinity of someone larger and stronger than you, who is also exhibiting anger whether directly at you or something inanimate. 🌹