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Feminism: sex and gender

Original poster

WTF is this?

77 replies

Revolutionfrommybed · 20/09/2023 18:35

Local poster for a menopause clinic is advertising it as suitable for all those with ‘ovarian systems’? I actually can not quite believe what I am reading. Is this what we have been reduced to?

OP posts:
LulooLemon · 22/09/2023 22:35

There's a lot wrong with it

SabrinaThwaite · 22/09/2023 22:36

DimTwmpanau · 22/09/2023 22:32

Nothing wrong with the poster provided here. It has two separate options for wording, without leaving out the wording you lot want. So maybe don't take the piss out of those? Doesn't look good, does it.

“You lot”.

Right. Gotcha.

bringbacktheladiesloos · 22/09/2023 22:38

EdgeOfACoin · 22/09/2023 22:01

If a transman or non-binary female-bodied person can manage their gender dysphoria sufficiently enough to have a baby, they can cope with terms like 'vagina' and 'breastfeeding'.

'frontal birth' is ludicrous because (a) it sounds like a C-section and (b) because a woman's 'front' hole is not her vagina.

'chestfeeding' is ludicrous because one cannot feed a baby from one's chest. Anyone who has had a double mastectomy cannot feed their infant in that manner.

I would not be giving birth in a hospital that puts out this stupid, scientifically illiterate information.

Anyway, they call breast cancer, breast cancer in men as well as in women, so why can't trans-men breast feed? Do they get chest cancer too?

Also, they have used frontal birth and chestfeeding so why not go the whole hog and say 182 'assigned male at birth', 194 'assigned female at birth'?

It's all stupid and totally unnecessary

Marshall564 · 22/09/2023 22:38

sadaboutmycat · 22/09/2023 22:21

I would presume that it is for women, and trans men who still have their ovarian systems present, and therefore will still be affected as their oestrogen levels dissipate.
Why would anyone be upset about that? 🤷🏻‍♀️

I'm in menopause because of the removal of my ovarian systems so I guess their help isn't for me.

Guess you missed this post. But you probably think she's just an old fashioned woman, not exciting enough
, so doesn't count.

Bex5490 · 22/09/2023 22:45

OP - Did the poster say women and ovarian systems like @SabrinaThwaite ’s example with frontal and vaginal or just ovarian systems? Could you post it? Or dm me like you said?

LaPerduta · 22/09/2023 22:46

What is so enraging about this sort of language is that it excludes women who have certain sex-specific medical issues - so their feelings and sensitivities are being sacrificed in favour of inclusivity towards trans women (aka men).

Bex5490 · 22/09/2023 22:47

LaPerduta · 22/09/2023 22:46

What is so enraging about this sort of language is that it excludes women who have certain sex-specific medical issues - so their feelings and sensitivities are being sacrificed in favour of inclusivity towards trans women (aka men).

But this is only true if the ‘inclusive’ words replace the original ones. Not if they’re used alongside.

LittleGreenDuck · 22/09/2023 22:47

SabrinaThwaite · 22/09/2023 22:35

I was lucky to get gas and air the first time.

The second time we had to insist that I’m not going home given that it’s now snowing heavily and I’ve no wish to be stuck and snowed in at home.

Ha! I had the opposite. Desperate to go home and they wouldn't let me because it was 2am and snowing heavily. I got snowed in at the hospital. Third baby, straightforward birth, I REALLY didn't need to be there.

Anyway, back on the subject, I'm surprised by the headcount of boys and girls. I hope they haven't been assuming genders there Hmm

LaPerduta · 22/09/2023 22:50

Bex5490 · 22/09/2023 22:47

But this is only true if the ‘inclusive’ words replace the original ones. Not if they’re used alongside.

Show quote history

Yes, agreed, but I thought the point was that they were replacing the original ones? Perhaps I misread.

Original poster
Revolutionfrommybed · 22/09/2023 23:17

They were replacing, there was nothing on the poster except a reference to Ovarian Systems, no mention of women along side it or any other euphemism/name for females.

OP posts:
Bex5490 · 22/09/2023 23:24

OP kindly sent me the poster. It says 100% of people born with ovaries will experience menopause and clearly avoids using the word woman. It is advertised as an arts and wellness centre - looks like a hippy commune rather than a clinic. When you said menopause clinic I assumed you meant a proper healthcare provider which sounded unlikely as like I said I’ve only ever seen real word to describe women (with additional inclusive language used alongside) in official medical places. But this poster is pretty ridiculous. Agreed.

ManuelBensonsLeftBoot · 22/09/2023 23:31

Looking for pet insurance and tried to get a quote from Tesco's - they asked for my pets gender. Neither of my kittens were prepared to share there pro-nouns so I have no idea what their genders are. It is nonsensical waffle. 'Ovarian system' may be clear to educated English speakers but for women who are not native speakers or who haven't had it spelled out to them that one class of humans have ovaries and another distinct class don't and that is simple way to classify the group's it's not simple or obvious. I'm not a fluent speaker of any language other than English but I know the word for 'woman' in half a dozen European languages and would probably recognise it in many others but 'ovarian system' not sure I would be able to identify that in Polish or Swedish.

Original poster
Revolutionfrommybed · 22/09/2023 23:34

It’s run by a GP who obviously works in healthcare and specialises in the menopause. As it’s very rural she travels round to specific village ‘hubs’ to give the talks so presumably is using this language elsewhere and in her day to day working life which is in an ‘official medical place’ as you put it, or in other words a doctors surgery.

OP posts:
MathiasBroucek · 22/09/2023 23:58

And how is someone for whom English is not their first language supposed to make sense of that?

SabrinaThwaite · 23/09/2023 00:04

I’m fully expecting Russell T Davies to send the new Dr Who off to have a rummage around in the Ovarian System in the upcoming series.

<insert Ncuti Gatwa double entrendres here>

AlfredaTheGrape · 23/09/2023 01:34

It says 100% of people born with ovaries will experience menopause

They can't even get that right... unfortunately some people born with ovaries will become deceased before they reach the point where they would experience menopause and a small number of others might have medical issues that mean they also wouldn't have a menopause as such.

They wouldn't have needed to say this sort of (incorrect) thing if they had used the appropriate straightforward language in the first place. It's fine to say "this will also apply to..." and that is a successful approach that I have seen on a part of the Cancer Research UK website that I was reading yesterday.

The disassociation of critical thinking and science from medicine is concerning.

agent765 · 23/09/2023 17:51

EdgeOfACoin · 22/09/2023 22:01

If a transman or non-binary female-bodied person can manage their gender dysphoria sufficiently enough to have a baby, they can cope with terms like 'vagina' and 'breastfeeding'.

'frontal birth' is ludicrous because (a) it sounds like a C-section and (b) because a woman's 'front' hole is not her vagina.

'chestfeeding' is ludicrous because one cannot feed a baby from one's chest. Anyone who has had a double mastectomy cannot feed their infant in that manner.

I would not be giving birth in a hospital that puts out this stupid, scientifically illiterate information.

If we let this kind of crap continue, we won't have a choice. ALL hospitals will be trotting this rubbish out.

I've just signed a petition asking for the GMC to be told to stop removing the word "mother" in maternity settings. The GMC! They've already started it.

For every little win women get, we get a depressing step back.

agent765 · 23/09/2023 17:54

Bex5490 · 22/09/2023 22:47

But this is only true if the ‘inclusive’ words replace the original ones. Not if they’re used alongside.

Show quote history

It's the start of a slippery slope downwards.

How long before it becomes too much effort to use the original words? Not long I'd guess.

Original poster
Revolutionfrommybed · 23/09/2023 19:13

I’m really upset about it and not even sure why or rather I know why but find it hard to put in to wordson a clear and concise way without being really emotional about it. I would like to complain but not sure who to. I honestly feel like it will be taken as I’m being transphobic but I’m not. My daughter is confused about her gender/sexuality and we couldn’t have been more supportive about it. Thank goodness she has just decided not to label anything and that it’s nobody’s business but her own. Trans people have a right to be who they are but I don’t understand why our language has to change to encompass that. I do think it’s a slippery slope and can’t believe no one else on social media seems to see the poster as a problem, but maybe they are too scared to speak up. Who knows.

OP posts:
greenbeansnspinach · 23/09/2023 19:49

I did just see on the NHS website that fathers are being referred to as “the sperm producing parent”. I don’t know how to do links to here or I would. Seriously although I support those who are struggling with or feel they have been born in the wrong gender, it cannot be possible that people other than men can produce sperm?

SuperNewMe · 24/09/2023 02:41

I'd assume that meant trans men too
As in, people who were born female.

Bex5490 · 24/09/2023 17:54

I think the real problem with all of this is the lack of guidance from the government who are clearly too scared of backlash from either side to commit to any formal written guidelines on the language to use. I’m an Assistant Headteacher of a school and it’s exactly the same with the guidance on teaching about LBGTQ+. It basically just says that in primary school children should be taught about it as part of the curriculum in an age appropriate manner. This means that one school may interpret it as teaching the kids about an inspirational gay scientist and another might teach the kids about what it means to be transgender. This is what happens when the government are scared to take a stance. Organisations and individuals (like the woman hosting these menopause meetings) just go off their own beliefs or the decisions made by the management of their individual school/hospital etc.

greenbeansnspinach · 24/09/2023 21:16

Bex5490 · 24/09/2023 17:54

I think the real problem with all of this is the lack of guidance from the government who are clearly too scared of backlash from either side to commit to any formal written guidelines on the language to use. I’m an Assistant Headteacher of a school and it’s exactly the same with the guidance on teaching about LBGTQ+. It basically just says that in primary school children should be taught about it as part of the curriculum in an age appropriate manner. This means that one school may interpret it as teaching the kids about an inspirational gay scientist and another might teach the kids about what it means to be transgender. This is what happens when the government are scared to take a stance. Organisations and individuals (like the woman hosting these menopause meetings) just go off their own beliefs or the decisions made by the management of their individual school/hospital etc.

What a very sensible comment. And this uncertainty and anxiety is feeding into and fuelling these upsetting and unnecessary wars between us all.

Bex5490 · 25/09/2023 08:08

greenbeansnspinach · 24/09/2023 21:16

What a very sensible comment. And this uncertainty and anxiety is feeding into and fuelling these upsetting and unnecessary wars between us all.

Show quote history

Absolutely agree.

SecretShambles · 29/09/2023 19:10

FrancescaContini · 22/09/2023 11:48

Frontal birth? Is that when the door in your lower abdomen is opened, oven style? If only…

That's known as a c section