"What about Men?" Caitlin Moran's New Book

[Squeaky2023]

I do not even know where to start. There's a lengthy article in the Guardian: www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/01/caitlin-moran-whats-gone-wrong-for-men-and-the-thing-that-can-fix-them

She talks cliche; the old mens' moan about the lack of attention on International Mens' Day and the lack of mens' support groups and charities.
I mean the reasons are fairly obvious here: because the men can't be arsed to organise themselves; they just complain about what women have. She is doing this for them via the privilege of a public platform.
She questions why men are more likely to be in gangs, why men can't celebrate their small genitalia like women do their vaginas.
All obvious basic stuff from a "poor men" angle. I doubt Caitlin has even asked herself who would speak for women in this way? It wouldn't be a man, that's for sure.
I am very disappointed and tired of this old trope and the lack of nuance and complexity when talking about the subject in a National paper by a woman.
I never want to kick out at another woman, but she's really sunk low.

^^I agree with this.

I'm not especially a fan of CM, and as she's made a career out of feminism, I find her silence on trans issues and the impact on women utterly unacceptable.

However, I don't disagree with what she's saying - that the patriarchy is having a detrimental effect on our young boys and men, and it's leading them to seek role models who are deeply undesirable, and unhealthy like Andrew Tate et al. I also think this lack of a voice is primarily behind Trump's rise to power in the US.

We all know men have a privilege but for many men it's still an invisible privilege as they simply can't comprehend what life is like for women. If they're not seeing blatant acts of sexism, it's hard for some to understand what's going on. And I think when there are young white men who come from a poor background, it's hard for them to feel as if they have a privilege. All they see is that there's no one speaking out for them - unlike LGB, black, trans, women etc - so they feel marginalised and seek out their own role models who do endeavour speak for them, which perpetuates the problem. I think the concept of privilege is hard to grasp when your life is hard, or you're not getting opportunities. And I think this is where many young men are at. I'm not saying they're right, but I think this is how many feel.

All of the points PP made re young girls having it harder, and boys still having it easier in society and work etc - well, yes. But it's not a competition. We can acknowledge the problems that young boys and men face and even the impact this has on women, while also acknowledging that things are still much harder for our young women and girls.

The problem is - as a PP said - who is CM trying to reach? Because as this post demonstrates, lots of women are just going to feel fucked off that a feminist has chosen to focus on male issues, and I doubt that many men are going to want to engage with a self-proclaimed feminist.....

From the article:

Men do not have an equivalent of the “Yass, Kween!” or the “dancing girl” emoji, or “Watch my girl go!”, that women get when they post something brave, honest and bold about her life.

I'm not sure any women I know talk like this. Maybe some of the 19-year-olds, and even then it's semi-ironic.

I think another issue is that men are expected by society to step up and become the breadwinner much more so than are women. This is reflected by the fact that many women state in dating bios that they're only interested in 'successful' and 'financially stable' men, whilst I've yet to see a man require this.

Of course, it's a curse as much as blessing as it means we often don't get taken as seriously as men, but the fact is that we do often have an opt out and many many women do choose to go part time after having kids and never return to FT work ever again or the mental load of worrying about a career and advancement/progression.

Oddly, I hear that phrase (mental load) used much more in regard to women
doing the housework but no amount of ironing and dishwasher loading could ever stress me out as much as things like important client presentations and speaking in front of 50 people in my previous job etc.

A not particularly smart male usually has to lower his expectations but I know plenty of not particularly intelligent women that have PT jobs and live a great standard of life due to their high earning hubby. I know it's kind of taboo to discuss on here but we're much more able to piggyback on men's success than the reverse.

Oddly, I hear that phrase (mental load) used much more in regard to women
doing the housework but no amount of ironing and dishwasher loading could ever stress me out as much as things like important client presentations and speaking in front of 50 people in my previous job etc.

The mental load, in my experience, involves doing the work presentations at the same time as constantly knowing you need to plan for school pickup, replying to that school email, think about what to buy for that birthday party this weekend and when it can be delivered, thinking about when the washing needs to be done to have that dress ready for the presentation but also include the sports kit that gets extra muddy on Wednesdays but is needed on Friday, when the supermarket delivery can be taken or whether it's more cost effective to do the shop in person, dealing with that minor ailment your family member has and whether it needs a GP a appointment and if so, when, and perhaps your DH can take them but you can't decide that until they tell you their schedule for the next few days, and knowing that mum might need a lift to that hospital appointment if they get a cancellation...

It's not just "doing a chore", it's the constant low-level planning and decision making and mental juggling involved.

I have no idea why you're linking intelligence to income expectations. What is it that you think the link is?

Men do, and it's "well said, mate" or "nice one" or "congratulations! Great job dude".

I heard her interviewed on Radio 4 about the book and I thought that she came across well and the key point she made was that there comes a point after which the most efficient way to improve quality of life for women is to sort out some of the problems of men, given that it is angry (and often disenfranchised) men who directly cause an awful lot of the systemic issues facing women.

Getting to dentist appts and ordering shopping online is just part of life though. It's kind of comical to me when people make them sound like an occupation. My friend's wife does this and he humours her and helps out although she hasn't worked in years and the kids are at school.

Meanwhile, he's managing the entire staffing function of a well known company across Europe/Middle East/Africa while she complains how exhausting it is to order stuff online. 😂 I could understand if someone has a high level job and is trying to do all that stuff as well, but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about the common situation where the bloke has a high stress job and the wife works a couple days a week in a low level job.

It kind of makes sense but the vicious circle is that most feminists will say it has nothing to do with them and that it's men's duty to fix it, whilst simultaneously complaining about the issues that result from not tackling the issue.

I feel like there's not much incentive for problematic men to sort themselves out in regard to the issues that affect women more than themselves.

Can’t see anything wrong with the article or the premise of the book.

I've always found her too smug and self-interested when I've seen photos of her gurning in interviews. Much like the Women Equality Party founders, where you get the underlying feeling that it was never about the feminist cause but about how they could use the feminist cause to further their own careers (the countless articles about Sandi Toksvig and her political party, like it was some new Friday night TV show) and Catherine 'buy my book' Mayer.

I always felt the same way about CM. She probably worked out the music journalism wasn't going to make her mark, so switched to feminism. Probably looking for the next thing to ride.

I'm enjoying it so far. Was slightly regretting pre ordering after I read the initial reviews and this thread, but it has much more warmth depth and understanding than suggested.

"and the recent closing of accounts of people deemed unsavory"

Are you talking about Farage? AFAIK Coutts closed his account because he didn't meet their financial threshold and he would probably struggle to open accounts with other banks because he's the very definition of a PEP and banks take their Anti Money-Laundering processes very seriously nowadays. Hasn't he has some questionable donations?

Fine. When they come for you I'll remember not to protest.

Oh FFS. When I'm a PEP accepting dodgy donations I'll hold my hands up. I used to do Anti-Money Laundering for a living and there's thing called Reputational Risk. You think that Courts is some sort of Lefty institution?

I’m 70 and lads were in gangs when I was young - mostly drunken punchups but a bit more scary when skinheads came along.
They also didn’t achieve much at school (or a certain demographic didn’t).
women were pointed towards secretarial work and primary teaching if bright, so they fitted in with school terms when they married.
The lads could start an apprenticeship (or just start as a painter or whatever) after school.
But the physical jobs have largely gone well they haven’t really when I think about it but they aren’t attracted to roofing/ fencing etc.
They need Dads to show the way.
Surely they’d do well nowadays with a roofing business.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes. Can you explain what you take the phrase 'mental load' to mean?

I've just read Private Eye's scathing review of this, where they refer to Moran's 'core constituency of Mumsnetters'.

I didn't think she had one!

What did she do in lockdown?

Isn't it the 'invisible work' women do?

I had the same understanding as the PP so googled it in case I'd got mixed up. BBC article lists 'Organising a playdate, or booking the kids’ medical check-ups. Working out how to hide vegetables in their evening meals, or ensuring there’s enough on the shopping list. Worrying about whether your son is on track at school, your daughter needs new shoes and when to replace your washing machine.'

I mean, yeah, this stuff defo needs focus but buying kids shoes is hardly like doing open heart surgery, a SWAT anti terrorist raid, or building a complex system architecture to be truly honest IMO.