"What about Men?" Caitlin Moran's New Book

[Squeaky2023]

I do not even know where to start. There's a lengthy article in the Guardian: www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/01/caitlin-moran-whats-gone-wrong-for-men-and-the-thing-that-can-fix-them

She talks cliche; the old mens' moan about the lack of attention on International Mens' Day and the lack of mens' support groups and charities.
I mean the reasons are fairly obvious here: because the men can't be arsed to organise themselves; they just complain about what women have. She is doing this for them via the privilege of a public platform.
She questions why men are more likely to be in gangs, why men can't celebrate their small genitalia like women do their vaginas.
All obvious basic stuff from a "poor men" angle. I doubt Caitlin has even asked herself who would speak for women in this way? It wouldn't be a man, that's for sure.
I am very disappointed and tired of this old trope and the lack of nuance and complexity when talking about the subject in a National paper by a woman.
I never want to kick out at another woman, but she's really sunk low.

Well, non academic women still have the option of finding a rich bloke, which men can't really do the reverse of.

That's a really crap and limiting option, but it is very definitely open to men as well.

And they don’t even need to be attractive. There’s an awful lot of cocklodgers who’ve found women to keep them on MN.

Men are very easy to reach for women. Not so easy to stop them once they have reached. They take a mile of you give them an inch, and you are giving them more than an inch when you prioritise the “needs”, or rather whims, of males at every level. Starting with the entitlement and sexism underlying the need to defend male perception that they are hard done to when at every level of society they have more options, opportunities, prospects and better life outcomes than girls and women. Who is defending the interests of girls and women while you are “engaging with” the men, what makes you any different from every other male chauvinist out there, and what proof do you have that it works to better the life outcomes of women and girls in any way? All I see is a two tier society where the bottom is reducing to Victorian standards very quickly.

She does appear, however, to be more than pleased enough with herself, for the both of us.

This is glorious. I shall steal it forthwith. And I agree totally with it with regards to CM.

I think CM gave up the pretence of being the UK’s No.1 Feminist a while back, didn’t she? Around the time all the real actual feminists prepared to say the difficult unpopular stuff about what a woman is and woman not having penises stepped up.

I’ve never been sure if CM truly believes TWAW or if she’s just a coward but in any case I don’t care. Her brand of feminism that never says anything controversial that might displease the men is over. Not surprised she’s turned her hand to writing about men now that the grift of being a feminist (look at me! I talk about pubes and masturbation!) is up.

I predict once the wind has truly changed direction she will pipe up at some point that she was GC all along and will try to position herself alongside heroines like Kathleen Stock, Maya Forstater and JKR. Too late, Caitlin.

In the Esquire version of this article she adds 'rank transphobia' to the list of Jordan Petersons crimes.

I found it odd that she criticised Jordan Peterson when my main feeling reading much of the guardian article was that it was the kind of thing that Peterson would have said.

@BitOutOfPractice thank you, glad you enjoyed it 😄

I mean, if you have a half decent figure you can just post bikini pics on IG and get thousands upon thousands of followers by pretty much doing nothing.

Can you think of any physical risks in doing this?
How much money, tangible power, or other benefit do you get from putting up a bikini photo in Insta and having lots of people see it? I see there are several 'transportation' pictures in that random screenshot too :)

I do agree that It's not a zero sum game. I'm sick of the term 'toxic masculinity' but it does seem to be behind a lot of shitty things about the world. (Not just in men either, the traits it encourages generally).

If you're interested in this sort of thing then I'd recommend Men Who Hate Women by Laura Bates.

I've never had time for her.

How much money, tangible power, or other benefit do you get from putting up a bikini photo in Insta and having lots of people see it?

Well, Google tells me that Instagram accounts with 1,000 followers can make $1,420/month on average. So that girl with 3.2m followers could be making absolutely shitloads. I gather that blokes just click follow if they like what they see so it brings up more pics from that account.

That girl isn't even famous as far as I know, just a random one I clicked on from the many thousands.

HypeAuditor's survey found that influencers earn $2,970/month on average. Influencers with followings between 1,000 and 10,000 followers earn $1,420/month on average while influencers with over a million followers earn $15,356/month.

So potentially £45k a month. I'm not surprised so many are keen to do it tbh.

This is "any girl with a half-decent figure putting up a few bikini pictures and doing pretty much nothing"? They are defined as influencers and are earning thousands if not millions?

Well, technically they're possibly included in that bracket but it's hardly akin to mummy and lifestyle influencers etc. It's just soft porn to attract clicks from randy blokes. Nubile young women posting scantily clad photos. I don't see what they're influencing aside from men's decision to have a 💦 over them.

Agree with every word of this.

RoseGallica Where's your basis for this statement: White working class boys can and do leave school with no qualifications and still have access, with decent career paths, to every trade and avenue under the sun.?

Because it is not true. I've taught in an inner-city, very socio-economically deprived area for 29 years and this has never been true. Pupils - boys & girls- work their backsides off to get the qualifications needed for college courses towards a trade; actual trade apprenticeships are like hen's teeth, so now go to those with the best N5s and sometimes Highers (GCSE/ AS/ A level- I'm in Scotland). It's really, really bloody tough out there if you're young and starting out.

By far the poorest readers are boys. Personally I work with the lowest scoring readers, and I have groups of 12, the vast majority of which are boys. They are also mainly white boys: the families of almost all children of colour in my area are incredibly invested in their children's education, working really hard at home to maximise work being done in school.

I, for one, will be prioritising the development of all children. I am proudly working class, and have three white, working class boys myself, who I very much hope will get decent qualification so that they're not in that desert of no opportunity that I see so many fade into.

it might help to define working class. There certainly are a group of working people - including myself - who are being taken for fools and working hard to relatively little advantage for themselves, in these days of private rent. That affects girls and women as well as, and I would argue more given the attacks on the primary employers of women, the health and education sectors.

Then there’s the group of those who realise that the working people are fools and that they will be given more opportunities if they don’t. It’s massively increased in size as working for a living became less and less rewarded and therefore attractive, since the late 70s/ early 80s.
There are loads of opportunities open to such people. I worked in the alternative education sector for a while. It’s full of predominantly boys who get given lots of opportunities other kids in the same circumstances do not. Including support to get into trades, again predominantly male based, usually by men biased against women and the society that’s worked against them, often eager to help other boys get ahead. Some have the best intentions, others motivated by misogyny, most with a complex mix. Many in it because times are hard for working folk and everyone is struggling to find a way.

It’s complex, obvs, we’re a large society. But you’re kidding yourself if you think hard work alone is a route. And as this is the feminist section I will ask again what is the equivalent for girls and women? Girls are always at the bottom of the pile, in any given sector of society. Unfortunately many do see online porn as their best alternative: just as many female celebrities have always used sexuality to corrupt music and film, and with rather better reasons, having few alternatives.

Sorry egg I think I slightly lost the thread - you said "I mean, if you have a half decent figure you can just post bikini pics on IG and get thousands upon thousands of followers by pretty much doing nothing" to which I pointed out the physical risks and asked what the benefit was.

You replied saying how much influencers could make (with some very odd maths equating it to £45k a month!) so I wasn't sure if you thought the first group, that we were discussing, was the same as the group you provided figures for. I doubt very much that they are - from what I've read, influencing looks like it takes a lot of time, sponsorship, networking etc not to mention initial cash to get set up - in an insanely crowded market (absolutely beats me that anyone would want to spend their time like this but hey!)

@Puffalicious "By far the poorest readers are boys. Personally I work with the lowest scoring readers, and I have groups of 12, the vast majority of which are boys."

This is really interesting - what in your view is likely to contribute to this? (I.e. are some families not that bothered about supporting boys to read because they can get a trade, or something?).

It’s full of predominantly boys who get given lots of opportunities other kids in the same circumstances do not. Including support to get into trades, again predominantly male based

I'm not sure where you were based, but this is not a thing here. In our school we have a whole careers team devoted to positive destinations and there are not 'lots of opportunities ' for trades or otherwise, particularly for anyone who hasn't pulled their finger out.

I also don't appreciate being told I'm 'kidding' myself. I have 29 years' experience teaching, 28 in the same deprived, Glasgow school, so kidding myself wouldn't have got me or my students very far. Hard work leads to so many opportunities:

Three of our girls got into medicine last year - one care experienced, all from poverty. Another got into St Andrew's on a prestigious STEM course (lone parent family). There were scores of girls got into other universities/ colleges/ training courses/ job market. It's like this every year.

I have the top N5 class this year (GCSE) and it's 65% female.

We're working our arses off for girls actually.

This is really interesting - what in your view is likely to contribute to this? (I.e. are some families not that bothered about supporting boys to read because they can get a trade, or something?)

AmuseBish

It's complex. Poverty is the big one- we'll never progress as a society unless we tackle it properly. And learning difficulties. Apart from these, I think it comes down- in some working class homes - to reading being seen as a passive/ unexciting/ pointless activity, and the old prejuduce that boys should be active/ sporty/ hood with their hands. Unfortunately, to get qualified to be good with your hands/ in sport you need to read exam papers.

Urgh god me too!
Annoying as fuck!

This! 💯

I’ve just come back from
seeing her talking about this book at the Royal Festival Hall. It was fucking painful.

She’s so funny, bright, perceptive in so many ways. I’d still like to be her mate.

But her brand of feminism is stale, blinkered and centres men. So, not actually feminism, then.

Fuck sake, Caitlin. Can’t you go and have a chat with Suzanne and Janice on the Times canteen, or summat?

I heard her being interviewed on the Fi & Jane Off Air show today. Cue bemused 'Why isn't a man writing this book?' and 'Why are you - a woman - writing about men's experiences?' type questions from the interviewers which I don't think Caitlin really answered.

Her chummy bouncy 'women all make friends instantly and talk about vulvas all day long' shtick doesn't fit my experience as a woman. And I find it disingenuous that she ignores the trans elephant in the room.