Has anyone had to fix their own internalized misogyny?

[YouAreNotBatman]

And how did you do it?

Long story short I recognize I have some deep patriarchal and misogynistic views, that I don’t want to have but I don’t know how to get rid of them.

For example I’m single, I don’t have kids and think I’m ’less than’ women who have boyfriends or are married or have kids.
I’m not interested in having sex, never had it and unless I get raped - never will be having it. And this makes me think I’m worthless and unloveable, that I don’t deserve live or a partner.
I’ve been called a prude, frigid, bitch, tease, cold, virgin shamed many times throughout my life and I have internalized them all and I feel deep shame about it / myself.
Funny thing is that if someone were to slut shame, not that happens these days, but I know if it did, I would know it’s wrong and call it out, but I can’t do the same for myself, even though I know it equally misogynistic.
Once a guy told me that I was ”useless for a man if I didn’t give pussy” and even now years later I haven’t been able to shake the worthlesness I felt in that moment off.

I seem to have deep beliefs that woman’s worth is tied to being a girlfriend/ wife / mother and women who don’t are something, I don’t know, defect, broken, not worthy or something like that I guess.
And it hurts other women and also myself.

How do I fix this?

@ToBeOrNotToBee tritely ordering somebody to just bypass the process of undoing decades of societal conditionimg is not helpful. She is trying to get there. There is huge value in discussion and sharing.

I’m single and old. It used to bother me when I was younger but now I feel that if I were in the wrong marriage it would be a horrendous existence for me.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4786253-i-am-not-a-dress-poem-from-woman-at-belfast-let-women-speak

This poem.

Virginity is a patriarchal concept tied to iseas of ownership of the female body.

Are you a virgin if you use tampons?
If you've had a pap smear for any reason before a penis ever entered your vagina?
If you only have anal sex?

I don't see how this is an internalised misogyny issue.

You just sound like you want a partner and/or have FOMO when seeing couples and families.

Rape is a sexual assault, an assault on a specific part of the body of another.

I'm sorry you feel like this op. I think misogyny is everywhere so of course we will have internalised misogyny.

I try not to buy I do judge women who dress for the male gaze. Like all long hair and fake tan. Is that internalised misogyny?

Virginity isn't a patriarchal concept, it's just a descriptor for somebody who hasn't had sex. That could be male or female.

Uhm…No, not at all.
No idea how you got there, but you couldn’t have got it more wrong even if you tried.

And I’d say it’s internalised misogyny to see myself/ single/childfree women as less than women who just comforts patriarchy.

I’ll just jump in here to say that I wish vieginity was seen just as a social concept, but considering how many times I’ve been bullied and shamed for being one, sadly I have to say people don’t see it that way.

Maybe one day.

And this makes me think I’m worthless and unloveable, that I don’t deserve live or a partner.

This is why I thought it sounds like you want a partner. Not sex, just a romantic companion.

Fine if I've got it wrong, but generally if you're completely satisfied with life, some knob's view won't matter to you which is why I thought that.

Feeling less than others isn't internalised misogyny unless you project that onto other people and think that they are less worthy for being single. You can feel however you like about yourself. Feeling unworthy is an external feeling, not necessarily how you feel about other women🤷‍♀️

Didn't mean to sound patronising anyway, it just came across like you want a life partner but aren't so interested in sex. @YouAreNotBatman

I don't mean me being a knob btw, anyone who calls you frigid, stuck up, pride, useless or says you to serve sex on a platter, that is!

I suspect you fix this by finding a very good, feminist therapist.

Meanwhile, you could do some CBT reframing on why gross comments from appalling men deserve any headspace at all, let alone more credence than your own feelings and choices. I find journalling is good for this as it gives you time to consider what you have allowed to take root unhealthily and then you vcan make sure you give twice as much page space to disagreeing with that belief, turfing it out, replacing it, saying what you really think of men with such attitudes and how you will now and in future dismiss any similar attacks without being hurt by them.

You could make a long list of what you are to counter the list of what you are not. You may not choose to be a girlfriend, wife or mother but you are (e.g.) a woman, a linguist, a friend, an accountant, a flatmate or homeowner or home maker, a dog lover, a traveller, an art appreciator, a chorister, a weightlifter etc etc - list all the things you are and take a moment to feel real pride in each one of them.

If you are asexual, there are friendship and also dating sites for asexuals and they might be worth looking into at some point if you like.

That moment of 'wait, is that how you see me?' is a crucial one to tackle. I have a friend who calls these 'deals'. She says when someone decides who you are or should be or how you ought to behave or how women 'ought' to behave, they are offering you a deal and you can consider it and turn it down or accept it.

I really like this because it helps to be able to do a quick reckoning and say to yourself, 'No deal.' It keeps it very simple and makes it easy to dismiss.

Physical virginity is often lost in ways other than making love but a person who had never made love would still be someone who had never made love.

The thing that really blasted away my internalised misogyny was spending time with other women. Supportive, clever, funny, evolved women. Just lovely to have that network. I am lucky as I have some great friends and we all started calling out the bullshit more as the years go by.

I started to age out of my "cuteness" and noticed how shit some men treated me. And then there was the health problems ignored, getting made redundant on maternity - problems because I was a woman - that radicalised me from sadness to rage!

And I confronted the "she's weird because she doesn't have children" crazy one-time thought I had about women without children. In reality I encountered two women at work, who were weird BULLIES, who happened to not have children. That was unlucky and their mothering status was irrelevant.

Once you wise up and see that nearly EVERYTHING you do as a woman is "wrong" it's loads easier. You have one kid, you're selfish. You have three kids, you're irresponsible. You work too hard. You don't work at all. Etc etc. All control.

The bar is on the floor for blokes. The minimum standard is held up as some amazing standard. And that's crap because it holds back men too.

You do you. I like sex but if I never had it again I'd be alright. (If I was 25 years younger, I would not be having sex as I hate porn and it turns men in to shit lays). I like my kid but I'd have a nice life if I didn't have them. Ditto marriage. I'm all about people doing a bit of therapy to throw off the guilt and shame. I'd bet my house you're a nice person who does no harm in the world. Shake off this shit and starting living for you

The thing that really blasted away my internalised misogyny was spending time with other women. Supportive, clever, funny, evolved women. Just lovely to have that network
I agree with this.
I found it easier connecting with older feminist women too, the ones who saw through the inevitable problems that the 'be kind, you do you' individualistic feminism was selling to teens and young women. The older I get, the more I admire their patience and willingness to humour my ignorance.

I'm not sure these are really patriarchal beliefs tbh. Men care a lot less in general about having kids than women do.

Women enforce patriarchy too, just as much as men do.
Patriarchy wants women in relationship/ marriage with men, to have sex with men and to bore their children.
Men may not care about children, but they do want women to have and raise them.
I’d say this is the core of misogyny.

It's impossible to be immune to the pervasive views of the society you live in

I agree with this. Its fantastic to question them though but yes, when you have been bombarded with this stuff since birth, its no wonder it creates automatic responses in your brain. I'm always shocked by the absolute vitriol for celebrity women getting cosmetic procedures done because really, they cant win. If they age naturally they get told they are letting themselves go/look old and haggard and if they have work done, they are told they're plastic and gross etc

I wish people would stop blaming women for the pressure they put on themselves and look at the wider picture of where it came from in the first place which is the patriarchy.

OP- I think its great that you are self reflecting and really examining this. Its hard to swim against the tide but the more of us who do it, will eventually change the status quo. I also think there is something to be said about brain neuroplasticity here. The thoughts we think create more neural networks so thinking actually changes brain chemistry. The more positive thoughts we create about ourselves, the easier it becomes to continue in that vein and emphasises how important our internal thoughts really are.

You call it internalised misogyny, I call it intrusive and unhelpful thoughts. Just as when a person is suffering from depression and anxiety they amplify any issues and emotionally bash themselves. I'm not claiming that you are depressed, but that you are responding in a similar way. You are taking an external comment and applying it to yourself as though it were true and immutable.

These thoughts upset you. That's what matters - not what the thoughts are. This can be addressed via therapy. Personally, I have found CBT extremely helpful. I have had two courses of CBT. The first was very helpful, but the effects did not last for long. I did the second course while on antidepressants, and I think the meds enabled me to better access and maintain the therapy.

Please do not feel guilty for having these thoughts. You are not a misogynist and you are not letting any women down. This is clear because your beliefs are all directed against yourself and you are strong in your defence of other women.

Absolutely!

Agree with this.

For every woman that wants to compete with men in the workplace etc, there is another who's happy to go permanently part time and let the man shoulder the financial burden. Enforcing the patriarchy as you say.

Whilst not equality, I do sometimes think it's a privilege to have the choice. I've got mates who stopped working FT around 30 and have a fairly chilled life now the kids are at school. Their husbands all work full time and will be doing so for almost another 40 years.

I think what you are experiencing is an awakening of sorts. This is always a good thing. You have described an awful lot of internalised shame which I have experienced in buckets too and with the conditioning girls get I suspect it is a near universal experience for girls and women.

I have listened to men (and women) excuse away some of the most serious harm that men can do familocide, rape, CSA, but the shaming of women for not being available to meet men’s every need by men (and some women too) is beyond extreme and women are shamed for that while men are excused for their crimes.

Having compassion for yourself and your experiences and your emotions can work wonders on dealing with that shame. From awakening comes growth and it brings another dimension to your character beyond the very twee version of womanhood that is lauded in our culture.

I think once you develop empathy for the part of you that was naïve and innocent around these issues then you can move forward with it.

I have issues with the whole "losing your virginity" notion. Like virginity has value, and therefore if you no longer "have" it, you are worth less.
Speaking as a woman whose virginity was "taken" by rape. It took a long time to get past the idea that I was not worth less or worthless.