13 yr old DS Men's Rights Activist?

[mommyisbest]

Need the wisdom of Mumsnetters. My 13 year old DS has said a few things to
me recently about how difficult men’s lives are. He wrote an autobiography for English in which he wrote: my mum said to my dad that she had given up her career in law to care for kids and they argued and that’s when I realised money and career isn’t everything. Recently he said that he saw a film about a transman who spent a year as a man and then committed suicide because life as a man is too difficult. There seems to be a narrative emerging about men’s rights and how feminism is unfairly dominant. Firstly have you come across this? Secondly which books would you recommend aimed at children that challenges this?

Check his phone.
Where is this coming from?

He doesn't have a smartphone but he does have an mp3 player and Nokia.
I did ask him what the source for that story was. He didn't answer but I'm sure he can access you tube on his mp3 player.

Did you give up your career in law?

When he said in his essay that money and a career isn't everything, what did he mean? On the surface that looks like a sensible comment, and not really about "how hard mens lives are".

The transman who the film was about... presumably they found it too difficult to live as a man, which isn't the same as saying that men's lives in general are too difficult. Do you know which your DS meant?

Regarding the autobiography I did speak to him and say that women who are full time carers don't crave money necessarily- but balance in terms of career and caring-which ideally they'd share with fathers. He didn't contradict my understanding. On the other point he did mean that life as a man is hard which he has said before. It is coming up. It does feel like he is making a lot of points about male experience being equivalent to female experience but no one hears about it.

He’s not a Men’s Rights Activist he’s a daft 13 year old but it’s still worth keeping an eye on his SM and what he watches on YouTube

Thank you. I will check devices carefully. I'm just cautious because I think men's rights activism starts with the thought that men are hard done by but don't talk about it. In itself this is not problematic and is probably true. But it can become a critique of feminism- women shout too loudly about their problems/take up too much space etc.

Well if you were implying that it’s your DH’s fault that you had to give your career and that then caused an argument between you, I can understand why your DS sided with his dad. It was your choice to give up work, no one else’s, unless you were physically forced.

if a 13 year old girl was showing interest in feminism Id imagine the tone here would be rather different.
he sounds a very sensible young man, who will do very well in this world. hard work goes a long way.

It sounds like he's been listening to the likes of Andrew Tate. A 13 year old has no idea what life is like for anyone but a 13 year old. He's repeating some twaddle from someone else. I'd also want to be sure no one is trying to groom my son if he came out with this kind of talk.

Mmm feminism isn't often a path that can become violent and comes from a real historical - and still very current - need for freedom from actual oppression.

Incels, anyone?

I'd agree though he is showing an analytical streak which is great at his age.

Provided he has a balance of information and yes, isn't a fan of AT

I'd want to know what specifically he means when he says things are hard for men. He has no personal experience of this, so these ideas are coming from somewhere. I'd challenge any misconceptions with facts and reason.

I would be careful not to dismiss his comments OP. From his perspective, life as a 13yo boy may seem harder than life as a 13yo girl. I have teens and my DS1 is definitely having a harder time than my DD (at school etc). Of course this isn't true for all teens, but it may be (or appear to be) true for him.

I would keep things calm and factual. Take the opportunity to point out inequalities when they occur.

I wouldn't try to shut this down I would agree...that doesn't mean life isn't harder for woman in other ways. It doesn't need to be a competition of who has it crappier

Male suicide rate is high. It is harder for men to talk about mental health.

It ia hard to get a good family life balance because it isn't the norm for men to take lots of time off.

Things are hard for men in a different way to woman and a lot of the issues stem from the same problems.

Men should get better parental leave without forcing the woman to give up their maternity leave. There are companies that give this as a benefit. Two weeks is not enough

Sounds like the women shouldn't be competing with men and should be happy to stay home and look after the children agenda being pedalled again recently. Men should come home to a perfect house with perfect children and a wife who waits on them hand and foot, then men would be happy (and women apparently).

I'd check his YouTube history. Does he have any social media like TikTok? Watching one video spawns loads more in the same vein which may have gradually changed his POV.

My sons went through periods of this but as they got older and gained some life experience, they realise that those YouTube types are being outrageous for money- nobody is going watch someone sitting on the fence about issues. Don't forget that this is how he sees the world right now. When my son was that kind of age, he mentioned that he felt that boys had certain pressures that girls didn't face but that's based on what he'd seen until that age so fair in his eyes.

It sounds like you’ve framed your choice to be a SAHM to your children as a bad thing, which might feel slightly insulting to your son who would assume you wanted to spend as much time with his as possible. He’s heard that you think it’s his dads fault that you had to give up your career, and he probably has enough awareness to know that his dad earned the money that enabled your family to survive, so no wonder the whole thing is confusing for him.

I would be careful with saying that women want to be able to share childcare and still work, because the fact is that very many women don’t want to work while their children are young and only do it because they have to financially. Of course plenty want to continue to work too, but either way, their choices aren’t a man’s fault.

More women attempt suicide than men.

Generally speaking Feminism isn’t toxic but a lot of the male version is

There are lots of YouTube types like Andrew Tate who have made big money discussing men being hard done by and feminism being bullshit.

I would discuss the giving up your career argument because he probably doesn't understand. He will have seen or heard of mothers who are lawyers and may worry that you giving up your career is a criticism of him. I suspect that he sympathises with his dad as he's not the one who can choose whether or not to continue with a pregnancy. Unless your h specifically told you to quit, I can see why your son has jumped to the wrong conclusions. He might not understand at his current age but one day he may remember your conversation and understand what you meant.

I don't really get what is Andrew Tate-like about either of the things he said.

Not** I think it's more the concern that depending on what online content DS is accessing and who he is talking to, Andrew Tate and his opinions are gaining traction at an alarming rate. He is highly influential amongst young boys and men. Certainly one to keep an eye on

If he isn't on social media, he might be getting these views from his schoolfriends.
I would talk to him, especially about the film. His take is that suicide is an option because life is hard for men; but the film was about a woman who felt like a man and could not fit in.

Full disclosure - I am a man

Obviously not read the full content of your sons writings, but you might be jumping the gun a little here. Life as a man is not the same as a woman, there are a large number of points that are obvious where women have it significantly worse.

However, that may not be what he is talking about. Life as a man without significant wealth does have a whole bunch of requirements, expectations, problems and issues. That they may be the same, worse or better is irrelevant to some degree as he may well be looking at his personal near future and seeing what is coming down the track and wanting to explore that.

By all means discussing how life can be crappy from women is very valid - but maybe it would be worth spending time to see if his thinking is rooted in the: "Women leech off mens labours, its so unfair" which must of course be countered or simply:
"Hells bells - there is a lot of demands on being a man that I am becoming, that looks frightening"
which deserves exploring and comfort rather than trying to get him to put his worries aside and only focus on the troubles of women.

Adulthood is not so far away anymore, he may have already been treated as if he was Schrodingers rapist - I had by that age. I was just in my school uniform walking home alone - I remember it really clearly more than 30 years later. After being warned about the evils that some men do all my life - suddenly being treated as if I was the evil man was very unsettling,

Thank you all. These are very helpful responses esp @Findwen
Really very helpful to get a male perspective. I have chatted to him and it turns out much of it is anxiety over growing up and what men are supposed to be or do.