Question for those who are againts surrogacy

[TabooOfNoSex]

Particularly if it’s reasoning such as ’using’ woman’s body and commodifying women's bodies.

How do you feel about porn?
Not necessarily about the industry itself, but watching it?
Do you watch it / what about other’s watching it / would you date (if you care about that stuff) someone who watches it?

I whould like to know why are so many of you against porn. You say it exploits womans bodies but if they choose it by definition its not exploitation. I dont understand it but i am open minded so could you elaborare an argument why are so many of you against porn?

How do you know they choose it? Women are trafficked for porn and prostitution. If the other choice is starvation or poverty, is it a real choice?

something can be chosen but still exploitative, people chose to work for less than minimum wage as they need money, it is not rich or even comfortably off women becoming surrogates, prostitutes etc it is the poor, the destitute, the barely managing, I think porn surrogacy, prostituition only fans, escort agencies etc are all exploitative

I do not believe anyone has the right to have children, to be homest I am not really that comfortable with IVF with donors

in most of Western Europe surrogacy is banned both commercially and in many countries altrustically as well

Oh hello @Nivid you're new here too. 👋A good way to find out opinions of MNers is to search the topic you’re interested in - try the key word ‘porn’. If you like, you can just focus your search in FWR. Enjoy!

About your comment about surrogacy. Don't you think that terapy for children that goes through adoption is because they are separated from their parents after being with them some time after birth not because of pregnancy? I dont think pregancy for itself would have the same emotional effects in the child.

@Nivid the number of people in porn with a trauma history suggests it's not a free choice. As does how few wealthy educated women choose it as a career. I see more news about it being non consensual- trafficked women, illegally/surreptitiously filmed, shared without consent etc.

I'm not an expert, but I can't see any pros that outweigh the cons.

I’m more interested in discussing this apparent ability you have that can magically detect that the porn you’re watching is 100% consensual and enthusiastically chosen as a career by all involved.

Is it some sort of telepathy?

Nivid did you search MotherBabyDyad as suggested?

There's quite a lot of you've never considered it.

Separating mothers and babies in Adoption is a least worst option, not a good option.

I dont think pregancy for itself would have the same emotional effects in the child.

Unfortunately @Nivid you think wrongly. Again, search function is your friend here. Lots of evidence already shared in several threads. @OhHolyJesus is particularly good on this.

I don't like surrogacy or porn, but I think surrogacy is far worse. It creates a child as a commodity - it is basically selling healthy babies to rich people. Although women can be trafficked and coerced into porn, it is not a given - but a baby has no choice and cannot consent to being sold.

Against commercial surrogacy and against porn. Would not have a relationship with a man who watches it.

Against both. I'm against all commodification of women's bodies, in whatever capacity.

You might be better off starting a separate thread on this. Its a huge topic. I am sure people will direct you to reading on this if you ask.

I was recently speaking to a French barrister who has been successful in getting prosecutions for rape in France. Because they have succeeded in getting the unedited tapes of porn films where the women are crying at the start and saying they do not want to do what they are being told to.

Even where women may be freely porn actresses - I am still against it as there is so much misogyny and violence against women - that is mainstream porn now. Men dominating women for men's pleasure. Porn harms all women, not just those in the sex industry. We can never achieve equality, let alone liberation, when men are wanking to images of women being dominated and abused.

I never considered pregnancy would affect the unborn baby emotionally, i will search for it.
What i think its some woman don't want to bond with their babies after birth or dont have the right conditions so the next best option for the baby is being adopted.

Brilliant post, on all points.

As for the “women are free to choose” argument; sometimes they are, and I’m equally free to judge those women. Individual actions have consequences for women as a class - just ask the female residents of Holbeck.

(I don’t judge the women and girls trafficked into porn or prostitution, or who feel they have no other choice due to poverty, addiction, chaotic upbringing or similar. Just the privileged few with their OnlyFans and their “sex work is work” mantras, who make out that everyone’s a Belle du Jouresque happy hooker and it’s no big deal.)

What i think its some woman don't want to bond with their babies after birth or dont have the right conditions so the next best option for the baby is being adopted.

So there are lots of options before adoption takes place, adoption is very, very serious and permanent and there can be many reason why a woman doesn't immediately bond with her baby. This is almost never a reason why a baby is adopted. I would really recommend exploring this further if you're genuinely interested but the child is nearly always better off with the mother than with someone else. Reasons why a child might be adopted would be drug use in the home, a violent partner she cannot/will not leave, neglect. There are many others and
just because a woman is poor and may struggle to provide for herself and her baby is not a good enough reason necessarily - I assume this is what you meant by the right conditions? Poor women have babies all the time and they manage.

The lack of an immediate bond, or even if a bond is delayed, is highly unlikely to result in adoption. I would really urge you to consider what a woman would go through in pregnancy, simply not to bond upon sight of her baby and to suddenly rethink the whole idea as - nah, I don't think I want this baby after all.

In addition to the thoughts you may want explore for reasons for adoption may I direct you to Jenna Jamieson's reasons for leaving (and returning to) Porn and Nordic Model Now for some real life stories on the same and also on Prostituition.

For surrogacy you could read blogs by Jennifer Lahl or Stop Surrogacy Now.

There is a lot of information available to you here also, so enjoy reading (and thanks to @SorryAuntLydia for recommending me).

Now come on, you can't be equating adoption and surrogacy? An adoption is a regrettable outcome in which the relationship between a mother and baby is severed in the best interest of the child and surrogacy is commissioning a baby under contract with the desirable outcome to take the child from its mother. It's the difference between putting out a house fire and paying to set it alight.

But how an individual woman choosing to do sex work will affect you or woman as a whole?
I am against trafficking too or any abuse...

I suspect Nivid is sealioning us.

Thank you i will read it.
When i said right conditions i meant financially and emotionally too. I know woman that dont want the responsability of taking care of babies or children (mental and/or financial aspect).

But how an individual woman choosing to do sex work will affect you or woman as a whole?
I am against trafficking too or any abuse...

If you could let us know how to tell if a woman has been coerced or trafficked that would be super. Because I've watched women go out to do it crying, with bruises, and the men didn't ask or care.

One of those women is dead now.

Interestingly I've never met a 'happy hooker' in all my decades of work and personal life knowing sex workers, except for one dominatrix who didn't actually have sex. Just inflicted pain. She was very happy.

I know woman that dont want the responsability of taking care of babies or children (mental and/or financial aspect).

Can you elaborate on why this is - are they single mothers without employment opportunities? Was abortion not an option or something they didn't consider at the time? I'm know there are women who regret becoming mothers, and again, for all kinds of reasons, but the main 'cause' of adoption remains mainly based on a very careful and detailed assessment which decides that the baby is at risk and safer elsewhere, in another family, with other adults. If a child is unwanted this would feed into the assessment.

I'm not sure if you are in the "sex work is work" camp @Nivid but something I saw today which gives just one reason why I am not.

I think most approach the classification of "sex work" being labelled work to afford those who are engaged in survival sex work protections under the law rather that it being an implication of its "rightness"

Then again without poverty there is no need for survival sex work.

Choices aren't made in a vacuum, women working in porn and prostitution are much more likely than the main population to have suffered sexual abuse, violence and/or grown up in care/with many ACE.
Even a porn apologist like Jon Ronson makes the depressing reality of these women's 'choice' very obvious in his writing.

Porn is additive and porn use/addiction destroys relationship’s
I consider it cheating in a marriage if a spouse uses porn.