Honour killings - what do the mothers think?

[BananaHamhock]

Over the years I have heard a lot of upsetting stories about women in eastern countries who have been murdered in the name of honour by male family members. I grew up in an area of North America that had a large Indian and Asian population and I remember stories once or twice of women visiting their home / mother countries (some were born in North America) but who had also been murdered during their visit in the name of honour, and have heard many others

I've just seen this story about a woman who's been murdered by her father and it's brought back all of the memories of the honour killing stories I remember hearing about when I was younger.

I've always wondered what the women in these families think about this situation. Are they furious with the husbands for murdering their daughters / relatives? Or are the mothers brainwashed into believing it will bring honour as well? Do they try and stop the husbands if they even know it will happen? They must be petrified of living alongside these male relatives that do it. It's so terrible I just can't really comprehend living in a society where something like this happens. Do most of the men get away with it? Do they seriously feel that their entire family and friends will see them and their family as more honourable without the poor girl / woman dead at the hands of a family member?

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I just can't really comprehend living in a society where something like this happens

Well for a start society and the legal system and press should stop calling them 'honour killings' as that is both victim blaming and implying that she did something justifiably punishable by death. We could call them 'murder' instead.

Think it's a mix..so many cases of these murders with different situations. Some where the mother is unaware,others where they seem a bit brainwashed into believing its the right thing to do and
others where they have taken part or there was a case years back (read the book by her ex daughter inaw) where the mum in law arranged it themselves...different in a way because not her daughter but because she felt she was bringing shame onto her son she arranged for her to go and be murdered.

Some men give off vibes that I can only describe as 'you're lucky I don't hit you' - it's like you deserve beating but luckily for you I'm an incredibly calm and patient man. Somehow it's just in the ether, display of weapons, comments about other women and other examples of male violence that he could kill you, you belong to him and it's up to him if you live and prosper.

So for mums who stay long enough that their daughters are grown what do they feel when that conditional tolerance is withdrawn? - Horror, despair, powerlessness, frustration and perhaps at times for some a sense of relief that there are worse things than death and her daughter has at least avoided them. As I'm sure that the men involved are full on the 'no man will want to marry her now' track with all the bad and intolerable things that happen to unwanted women.

Because most of these women from those backgrounds are brain washed. They are taught from a young age that as a woman they dont really have a voice. Many of them are also uneducated and rely on their husband. Most of these mothers will not protect their daughters from male family members that cause violence. However it’s a total different story when it comes to their sons, usually sons are favourable and treated as princes.

In cultures backward enough to practice ‘honour killings’, the opinions of mothers, or any other woman, on anything are entirely irrelevant. Patriarchy rules unchallenged and women are chattels.

Women in such societies agree with the premise that a daughter (or a son - boys are also subject to honour killings) should be killed to maintain the family's honour. They also will agree with 'punishment rapes' where e.g. a lower status family is punished for a transgression against a higher status family by having their daughter(s) raped. Women, bear in mind, carry out FGM.

The one who haunts me is Banaz Mahsood. Her uncles and cousins raped,murdered her, and buried her in a suitcase because she chose her own partner.
There had been a.previous attempt on her life but she escaped. The policewoman who listened to her account dismissed it, deciding Banaz was a drama queen.
The men succeeded on their next attempt. What did the mother think? She went out with her younger children and the father for the day while the other men went into the house where Banaz was. Did mother know?.She must have known something was up.
Her partner testified at the trials which was brave of him. He killed himself later because he couldn't get over it all.
Rape and murder = honour?

Her mother almost certainly knew - and agreed. Had she not she still would have been in no position to help her daughter, but generally the women involved in these 'honour' killings agree with the cultural norm that produces them. Even the women violating the norms almost certainly agree with them in some ways. It's very difficult to escape generations of your culture, of course.

At least the police seem to have stopped treating women reporting they are in danger of 'honour' killing as if they are drama queens (!!!)

In the case of Shafilia Ahmed the mother was just as much to blame

Sometimes the mother is involved- like in the case of Shafilia Ahmed, or the woman who founded Karma Nirvana. Even if they don't agree I doubt they have much power in those family dynamics. It's a terrible thing. I'll always think of Banaz Mahmod.

Definitely! In the case of Surjit Athwal it was all arranged by her mum in law. Although guess different in a way because she wasn't her daughter and the view was she was bringing shame on her son...its still sad rather then letting them leave and move on etc murder is seen as the obvious option!

Banaz case is sad..and to think she went to police for help the first time the attempt was made but was dismissed as being hysterical or something.

That women were dismissed as hysterical is the worst thing. Also, for some years the phenomenon was treated as 'cultural' and 'accidents' were not properly investigated. Like FGM, it was seen as something the community did that should not be interefered with. There was something of a change in this attitude, I think, when it became obvious we were talking murder and actual disabling mutilation.

As PP said - FGM is almost exclusively performed by female relatives.

There is a huge amount of internalised misogyny and then abuse perpetrated by women (at the instigation of men or male-centred power structures) in every culture. You see it in prostitution/sex trafficking and modern slavery - women recruiting other women. Where domestic abuse runs in families - mothers dismissing their daughters when they complain about the way a partner is treating them. There are examples everywhere unfortunately. So yes, some women will perpetrate or contribute or protect in cases of murder by family members. Many, of course, will be devastated.

From my experience in the Asian community (my dad is Asian), the types of families that practice this type of violence usually migrate from villages where there is a very tribal mindset and women do not have a voice or any power. They are just vessels for producing children and housework. It is very sad. If you watch any documentaries about so-called honour killing (Banaz: a love story is very well made but very heartbreaking) you can get an insight into the power imbalance between men and women in these types of families. Very patriarchal and the view that girls’ behaviour and bodies are to be controlled for the ‘honour’ of the family. Women are held to a completely different standard to men- there is a saying “men are like gold, if they fall into mud they can be wiped clean. Women are like cloth- if they fall into dirt they will be stained.”

As a PP mentioned, women are taught and see first hand from infancy that they have no real value except to benefit men, no real autonomy and that if they step out of line there are very scary consequences.

So I would agree with a PP in that the women’s reaction/ thoughts can range from being terrified and muted (e.g. Surjit Agerwhal’s sister in law, Shafelia Ahmed’s sisters), passive & enabling (possibly abused) eg Banaz’s mum or active like Surjit’s MIL (exception rather than the norm). What I don’t agree with is that any of the women are unaware. So called Honour based violence is the culmination of months/ years, sometimes decades, of emotional and physical abuse, threats to safety and life and strict control. It is very worthwhile reading the memoirs/ watching documentaries of women who have survived or family members e.g. Banaz’s sister who is an active campaigner, to get an insight into the women in the family.

I also don’t agree with scrapping the specific label and generalising these as ‘murders’ like any other as opposed to honour based crime or so called honour based killing. Understanding the psychology of the perpetrators and the family dynamics is essential to helping victims.

It's a dangerous culture to me when this could ever be seen to be acceptable.

I think that the press, and everybody else actually, should stop using the term 'honour' in this context. It is not honourable in any way it is cold-blooded murder.

Can I do these killings actually restore honour?
if a man is known to have murdered his own daughter, who the fuck is going to be persuaded to pony up a bride for his sons?

what actually happens to families that kill their daughter?

Sadly, whether they agree or not, mothers can't do anything to stop the males in the family from deciding herdaughter's fate. Often times the mother and sometimes the mother in law too are part of the plot. The idea of losing face or 'honour' concerns the whole family and they believe there is a sin involved so the family needs to be cleansed. This isn't only about girls/women, it also applies to LGBTQ etc. In a country like Pakista, e.g. the Law actually states that a husband can 'beat his wife lightly' !

I asked this question to someone with first hand experience of HBA- they said the women in the family can on a par and sometimes actually be worse than the men.

I disagree with calling it murder and not an honour killing because it misses the strong cultural element to the offending behaviour and I don’t think the risk can fully be grasped without understanding that.

can be seen as securing the family honour,
the daughter would be seen as bringing dreadful shame whole family,

Absolutely

I can’t begin to say how offensive I find the term “honour killings”. It’s murder.

You’ve only got to look back a generation here in Britain to see ingrained cultural misogyny.

For example, that 1950s ‘how to look after your husband’ article that gets trotted out and laughed at - with delights such as ‘make yourself look pretty when he comes home, he’s work hard and deserves to see you looking your best…’ (or words to that effect). That was the prevailing attitude - be a good little homemaker and wife.

It’s not a million miles away from the attitudes that these cultures have. Women have no agency and are considered wayward if they seek agency. If they repeatedly break that rule, they are punished.

So yes, they are ‘brainwashed’ and we should be less tolerant and more proactive at eliminating these backward and dangerous cultures in a modern Britain.

In many cases the mothers and other female members are complicit and the whole wider community is accepting.
Talk of the mother's being brainwashed is silly. Everyone involved is brainwashed (just like the 1950s Britain example), everyone is accepting.

Very good post, I just wanted to add that I agreed the use of the word ‘honour’ is important because it goes some way to understanding the psychology behind that kind of murder, which is essential when it comes to trying to prevent this kind of horror - you have to understand mentalities and cultural complexities in order to do something about them. It’s why the police have dedicated specialists and training in order to be able to try and protect women in these situations. It doesn’t mean you can’t feel distaste - and irony - over the term, but it does help to classify the type of crime, in the same way that murder and manslaughter are not the same thing, it’s really no different.

I also wanted to add, as I don’t think I have seen it mentioned in this thread other than @MyriadofDreams post yet, that yes some women are complicit in the destruction of other female family members… but there have also been cases where women have been immensely brave - they are often sisters or sister-in-laws - who put their own safety at risk to try and stop these crimes or to try and get justice once they have occurred. It’s partially generational, partly because they can imagine themselves in the victim’s shoes, but wholly because they are incredibly brave and know they are putting themselves in danger and risk permanent exclusion from their whole family and everything they have ever known.