How to approach Dh minimising male issues

[buckeejit]

Not sure how to phrase it but I think dh feels personally attacked/responsible when I discuss male violence & turns it to whatabouttery.

Examples are last week he was reading something & said people being killed by a member of their family is x number or has gone up by x%. I said I wasn't surprised given how much male violence against women happens at home, also, sure your man in south of Ireland killed his wife & 3 sons & then there was a man in England drove his family off a cliff or something, (these were cases I remember-peri menopause means I'm not great at remembering lately). He immediately jumped in to say and a women went to prison for killing her child recently & went to google to find an example.

Then last night Michael Buble was on & I said I didn't have good feelings about him & ds-13 asked why & I was showing him the video of MB & his wife. Dh couldn't see the video but still voiced 'but you don't know what happened before that & what the situation is & can't condemn him just for that'. I disagreed & said you absolutely could condemn him for the bad behaviour that you see & why was he defending him when he can't even see his actions. He said 'but I can hear..' they were speaking Spanish & that was irrelevant anyway as the visuals were key.

It has really annoyed me as I feel he minimised that behaviour in front of ds. We don't argue much & I didn't want it to escalate in front of dc but feel that dh thinks I'm a man hater or give them a bad press or something. I am gender critical & call out when women are unfairly treated & I get the feeling that he thinks I'm over the top with it. I don't feel the need to say women sometimes perpetrate these crimes too. Recently he said that Jordan whatshisname talked a lot of sense from what he's read.

Usual disclaimer of he's very lovely for the most part etc.

Not sure what I'm looking for but I guess wondering if anyone else is in a similar situation and/or any advice, apart from LTB

I can't disagree with any of that, and I wasn't really aiming my comments at you personally. It's more that it just brought the issue to mind.

No doubt men commit the vast majority of violent/sexual crimes, even if it's a minority of men. However, I think there's a fine line between discussing it with men and using it as a stick to beat them with. I'm not saying you do this but plenty of women do.

I guess I just feel a bit meh about the number of white, middle class, well educated women who I've seen lecturing men on privilege. It's a bit rich at times when these women are second only in privilege to their husbands and usually benefit from their husband's privilege - e.g. his increased salary means the family is more comfortable in most cases as the majority of men aren't financially controlling cheaters and genuinely love their families.

I don't get the impression that some of these women do it for altruistic reasons so much as just enjoying being combative, like my mother has always been - any excuse to get on her high horse and moan at my dad (basically bullying).

I also feel like there's often a double standard. Read the current thread in AIBU about the female friend who always gets drunk and lewd - touching her boobs and talking to men about her boob job. So many posters are saying 'let her crack on, none of your business' etc, but if a man was talking about a friend known for rubbing his crotch and talking to women about his penis extension then I guarantee posters would be saying it was the OPs responsibility to challenge this behaviour (which is basically what another poster pointed out, and I found myself agreeing with.)

Who is 'lecturing' though. Is it not normal for people to have discussions with each other?

It’s very much the same thing. And White Feminists employ the same tactics that they complain men use towards them.

You cant say anything these days without being accused of racism= I don’t even want to talk to women anymore because I don’t want to be accused of sexual harassment

It’s so awful to be accused of racism and cancelled=what about false rape allegations that ruin men’s lives?

I don’t have white privilege/white privilege doesn’t exist because I’m a woman, I’m poor, I’m gay, I have a disability, etc. But all men have privilege even if they’re poor, or brown, or gay, or have a disability.

“I’m so tired of being held responsible for other people’s racism! It’s wrong to call us a racist county!” But all men have an obligation to educate themselves and stand up against sexism. As OP just said herself.

You can’t be sexist against men because the Patriarchy means they have power and the world caters to them! But you can totally be racist against white people because the dictionary says it’s about race and not power dynamics.

Women only spaces are crucial for women for many, many reasons. Which they are. But also white women invade the black mumsnet board regularly with tantrums and complaints about how they’re not allowed to have an opinion and how it’s racist to have a black only board, even though that’s not what it is.

I hate when a man drops in and gives his opinion= As a white person, I think racism is blah blah blah

Sexism needs to be punished in boys in school! They should be suspended and made an example of! But also it’s not fair to call a kid a racist. That could ruin his life. Sure he used the n word but the real criminal was his black friend who told everyone. That thread in particular was a treat.

A man touching a woman without permission is assault. Hounding her about personal information is harassment/threatening! Shame men! Hold them accountable! But also NF was being intentionally coy and she should have just answered the question or spoken to the Palace privately.

And I have seen this and more on this website alone never mind in my real life. And there’s always excuses about why it’s Unfair for white women to be called out on their privilege but All Men have a responsibility to women. And then women like me are chastised for being divisive and brainwashed as if we can’t see the hypocrisy and their willingness to sacrifice us for their own gain with our own eyes.

There is a difference between wanting things to be equal and wanting to close the gap with the straight, rich, white, men of the world. I know better when it comes to women’s issues and I’m tempted to tune White Feminists out half of the time so I can imagine why men would have a similar reaction.

If somebody is being 'dismissive' or displaying frustration then they probably don't want to have a discussion (be lectured). It's pretty much womansplaining a lot of the time.

Well said.

But why are men’s feelings more important than women’s safety?

Everyone here knows that there is no place on the internet where men are talking about how women might be feeling or going through, right?

Well, I guess everybody also needs to be educated on how best to avoid being struck by lightning, right? Because the likelihood of being struck by lightning is one-in-60,000 vs a one-in-100,000 chance of being murdered. Safety coming first and all that.

Even better, though, would be to strictly limit the amount of driving we do as that's an even bigger threat to women's safety. No reason we have to focus on just one thing. Make sure you chew your food properly too as a not insignificant number of people choke to death every year.

It's only when you start to think about all the other threats to our personal safety that you begin to realise how myopic a lot of feminists are.

I can assure you that the focus on men is absolutely, positively, definitely nothing to do with having an easy target. I repeat....the relative dismissiveness of other threats in comparison to men has nothing to do with the fact that male violence offers a convenient perpetrator. It is just sheer coincidence that there is nobody to blame for lightning strikes.

Omg lol. Accidentally brushing up against someone’ 🚩 🚩 🚩

Because isn’t it also men you want to support your cause?

If you want someone to buy what you’re selling, especially when they come at the issue from a different perspective than you, doesn’t it make sense to start off , not alienating them.

You didn’t really answer my question.

Why is gently patting men on the head and sayin there, there of course is not all men, of course it’s not you (how would we even know that’s true?) our little darling angel boy?

”Good” men already know it’s not about them.
And out of those ”good” men who want this to move forwads don’t make it about their feelings.

So, once again, why are men’s feelings the most important thing?

I thought i did answer. And re reading my reply, i don’t wish to say much more, other than to add, that i dont see it as a binary choice but rather, if you improve how to speak to people, maybe they willl engage more.

But, you went the other way with belittling and condescending, so i will wish you well in your very worthy cause.

Thank you!

different perspective than you
You mean men who hate women and perhaps wish to hurt women.
I don’t think listening to them or worrying about their, imaginary hurt feelings, should ve something to waste time on.

Good” men already know it’s not about them.

And out of those ”good” men who want this to move forwads don’t make it about their feelings.

Good little men who listen up and do what they're told?

(Of course any men who don't want to be lectured aren't 'good' men. Just like how anybody who doesn't want to sit and nod their head in agreement that men can change sex are transphobes).

If I was a man I'd probs tell you to shut up and I'd be perfectly within my rights to do so. Nobody is compelled to sit through lectures on the misdeeds of strangers. Thankfully the vast majority of women don't want to identify as feminists so 'educating' all men is the least of their problems.

It's a shame in some ways as there's much more to feminism than moaning about men, but at this point I think it could do with some new non-toxic branding. I'd never say I'm a feminist. I'd only ever say I support xyz cause.

It’s not about berating men, but making sure they realise why women are cautious. Making sure they don’t dismiss our concerns. Wanting them to understand why unstaffed railway stations are a real problem, for example.

I think we're talking about slightly different things.

Giving consideration to women's safety when designing systems and services etc is perfectly reasonable. However, expecting men to sit and be earbent over "100 women a year, blah blah blah" and getting angry if they roll their eyes is a bit unreasonable. Logically, 99.99999% of men aren't murderers so even if you don't know which are the good ones it's unreasonable to berate men on it just for being male - especially men who you know aren't murderers.

Similarly, I'm more than happy to discuss the British Empire, racism, and what we can do to improve society going forward. But if somebody wants to berate me on the transgressions of other white people hundreds of years ago and expects me to hang my head in shame due to some perceived culpability....well, quite frankly they can fuck off.

Western society is far more progressive in it's treatment of women than most of the world, and the vast amount of modern slavery today happens in ethnic countries, with Russia being the only majority white country in the top 10. I'm not going to lecture an Indian person over dinner about the rape culture in their home country, or the slavery problem because well what does it achieve really.

There are just a subset of people who like to use perceived oppression as a type of leverage over others, almost a power play, and they generally create division rather than solidarity. They're best ignored.

I'm a woman working in an overwhelming male sector (construction) for a Sikh company. Due to my geographical area I also work with a lot of Muslim and black people, and also lots of eastern europeans as they tend to be well represented in non office jobs where good written English is unimportant (trades etc). The general truth is that when you're friendly with somebody you don't tend to sit and lecture them over cultural transgressions, even if as a friend you can have more candid/risky discussions than you can in a general office environment.

Most of these people who are obsessed with lecturing others on privilege etc aren't doing it from a place of goodwill IME. It's usually a superiority tactic or just an indication of personal insecurity. And as I mentioned above, their demeanour usually changes pretty quickly when people start talking about white feminism/privilege or about how society's view of men contributes to the '80 a week' etc. In the vast majority of cases these types of people don't want to reciprocate with the receptiveness they expect from others.