How to approach Dh minimising male issues

[buckeejit]

Not sure how to phrase it but I think dh feels personally attacked/responsible when I discuss male violence & turns it to whatabouttery.

Examples are last week he was reading something & said people being killed by a member of their family is x number or has gone up by x%. I said I wasn't surprised given how much male violence against women happens at home, also, sure your man in south of Ireland killed his wife & 3 sons & then there was a man in England drove his family off a cliff or something, (these were cases I remember-peri menopause means I'm not great at remembering lately). He immediately jumped in to say and a women went to prison for killing her child recently & went to google to find an example.

Then last night Michael Buble was on & I said I didn't have good feelings about him & ds-13 asked why & I was showing him the video of MB & his wife. Dh couldn't see the video but still voiced 'but you don't know what happened before that & what the situation is & can't condemn him just for that'. I disagreed & said you absolutely could condemn him for the bad behaviour that you see & why was he defending him when he can't even see his actions. He said 'but I can hear..' they were speaking Spanish & that was irrelevant anyway as the visuals were key.

It has really annoyed me as I feel he minimised that behaviour in front of ds. We don't argue much & I didn't want it to escalate in front of dc but feel that dh thinks I'm a man hater or give them a bad press or something. I am gender critical & call out when women are unfairly treated & I get the feeling that he thinks I'm over the top with it. I don't feel the need to say women sometimes perpetrate these crimes too. Recently he said that Jordan whatshisname talked a lot of sense from what he's read.

Usual disclaimer of he's very lovely for the most part etc.

Not sure what I'm looking for but I guess wondering if anyone else is in a similar situation and/or any advice, apart from LTB

Whatabouttery really annoys me. I used to organise lunch for the women in the office and got asked what about the men. Tried to organise intl women's day, you guessed it, what about men's day. I am sure there are example of women using whatabouttery but surely far less than men!!

If they cared that much about international men's day you would think they'd know it's November 19th wouldn't you?

What did Michael Bublé do?

@Campervangirl I work in the same industry and I saw that thread. What an absolute load of nonsense it was, but sadly I’m not surprised!

@GardenNice Hopefully this links the Instagram live he did with his wife. https://www.etonline.com/media/videos/michael-bubles-wife-luisana-lopilato-defends-him-after-controversial-instagram-live

Tbh it's probably pretty annoying having somebody continually lecture you about the actions of other people that you have no control over, just because you happen to share a characteristic with them which you also have no control over.

We constantly hear how it's 'not all men' and how he shouldn't take it personally, but let's be honest you're only lecturing him on it because he's a man.

Every now and then the tables are turned and a poster has a moan about white feminists. It's never very pretty and suddenly there is much indignation, even when people say 'not all feminists'. Last thread I read was a WOC saying how she was grateful that white feminists had opened the door for them, but that sometimes they transgressed by speaking on issues they didn't really understand - like not understanding that some women feel exposed without a burkha etc.

She was literally told to 'fuck off' by longtime regular members, called a man, and generally not treated very well. I always remember that thread when posters are moaning that men shouldn't get offended like they do.

Here's the thread I was talking about.

I've defo seen some of the regular posters on there waxing lyrical about men, so it was something of a surprise to see how little self awareness they seemed to have when displaying their own white fragility.

For the record, I do think male culture is often problematic but I wouldn't dream of lecturing somebody else unless I was prepared to suffer the same from somebody beneath me in the privilege hierarchy. However, that doesn't seem to be the case with many posters on here.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3180396-Lets-Talk-about-White-Feminism

What did bublé do?

@quietnightmare - link below to live stream where his behaviour towards his wife is questionable at best

@TruckerBarbie yes that thread became quite inflammatory as is often the case on MN & the op had some valid points & others that I maybe wouldn't agree with but as always the vitriol is unnecessary. I do understand people feeling triggered or defensive when something is generalised, although I struggle to see how we discuss a problem around male violence if we can't acknowledge it.

In the case we were discussing at the time was around Buble's behaviour. Dh couldn't even see the video yet was saying 'you don't know what happened leading up to that & you can't condemn him for a 15 second snapshot'. I pointed out that I wasn't condemning him but it certainly weighed heavy in my thoughts of him, along with some other things I've read.

Dh couldn't say how long a behaviour would need to be sustained in order for the person to be condemned by him but did agree that the man that violently broke into my 86 year old friend's house & stayed for 4 hours tormenting her was long enough. So between 15 seconds & 4 hours is his thinking

Again, I wasn't lecturing him, (I wasn't even talking to him) & I'm aware of the other issues but do find it grating that he only ever seems bothered about other forms of violence when I'm discussing violence against women.

That's fair enough. I was more talking in general - this thread got me thinking about a fairly common mumsnet occurrence where women moan that their husbands aren't very interested in xyz feminist issue.

The thing is, people who are extremely self assured of their moral rightfulness often tend to forget that nobody actually owes them their time or attention and that people are entitled to eat their dinner in peace. Certainly, many of these same women would likely not be thrilled to be lectured every evening over dinner about the male suicide rate and how indifferent most women seem to it ('not all women' obviously). Or about how white feminists always dominate the discourse (we've already seen the reaction to that one on here!).

I used to work with a somewhat insufferable Indian woman who loved to lecture us all on white privilege etc. Nobody dared say anything and most just nodded their heads and carried on. I think that she felt some level of entitlement as 'a young WOC', as if it made her some ambassador/world authority on racism. The truth is that she was pretty shit at her job and people got annoyed correcting her submissions whilst getting an earful of pc bollocks at the same time.

Eventually, one of my other colleagues ended up biting back and pointing out that Sikhs are actually fairly privileged in the whole scheme of things, being the most wealthy by far of India's four main religious groups, with 6/10 Sikh households falling into the highest wealth percentile. Lecturing colleague was so in love with the sound of her own voice that she'd not twigged in a whole year of working with this other colleague that other colleague was actually married to a Sikh and very knowledgeable about Indian culture.

Sometimes people just want to eat their lunch/dinner without being lectured on the state of the world.

Every now and then the tables are turned and a poster has a moan about white feminists. It's never very pretty and suddenly there is much indignation, even when people say 'not all feminists'.

The other day I met my best friends new flatmate. Nice enough bloke and the chat was all very good natured and lighthearted joking. Then, unprompted, he decided to start mansplaining that there's 'scientific proof' that man flu 'is a thing' and men suffer more from colds and flu than women.

My friend knows me and my 'feminist ways' so tried to shut him up, but I sarcastically rolled my eyes and gave a wry smile.

Flatmate goes 'ewwww you're not a feminist are you?'

I wasn't going to let a first meet descend into a debate, and frankly I cba to engage. Backing women's rights doesn't automatically make you a 'feminazi' or 'man-hater' so I don't see the label as negative, even if he does.

He then dropped in, 'Not all men are misogynist bastards' going immediately on the defence, which I found amusing, but stayed quiet. I hadn't said 'men' do or act like anything. He was assuming my opinions and shutting them down before they were even spoken. It was obvious the very fact I wasn't quietly nodding along and agreeing with him but opted to tease him instead rubbed him up the wrong way and he felt the need to label me.

I did however, bide my time, and after the third instance of him saying 'all women do xyz' I did point out the hypocrisy and we had a laugh about it.

It doesn't bother me on a personal level, but I did find it very telling that he felt the need to shut down a woman before she'd even said anything to put him on the defensive. Just an eye roll and a smile was enough.

It soundsike your friend probably warned him about 'your feminist ways' and he was trying to get in first. I generally can't be arsed for these types of discussions in social situations. They never seem to end well, much like most polarising topics - man vs woman, black vs white, left vs right.

By all means show people examples of individual behaviour, discuss individual examples, but characterising that individuals behaviour as typical of any group will offend said group.

Bard, the thing is that it’s almost always men who attack women. It’s irrelevant what percentage of men attack women. It would make no difference if a tiny number of very busy men were carrying out all the attacks! We have no way of knowing if a man is good or bad, so we are rightly cautious about any man in a dangerous place, eg station at night.
Violence against women is a more serious issue than anyone’s hurt feelings.

Well, yeah, exercising caution is sensible. I think few people would disagree with that. But it's still no reason for women to berate innocent men over the dinner table. Unless, of course, you're questioning whether your husband is one of the good or bad ones and you're trying to get an angle on it?

Realistically speaking, what's he going to do about the shady looking man at the train station?

Of course, the issue with this topic (and similar ones) is that men are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Much like how someone who dares question pronouns at work can easily be silenced with an cry of 'transphobe', men can be accused of being dismissive/insensitive if they dare say that they don't want to be lectured.

If we acknowledge that it's 'not all men' then why should all men have to be lectured on it?

All men don't need to be lectured on it but imo all men should recognise that it's a real problem & want to help break the cycle for future generations, particularly their own children.

Society has contributed to this problem so I think everyone needs to be educated on it, including plenty of women, in order to make progress. That doesn't have to be a tirade against men but looking at what makes some men behave this way & acknowledging the issues and behaviour that leads to male entitlement are key.

Really don’t think you can say anything meaningful about men in general or Buble in particular based on an out-of-context 2 second clip.

My husband wasn’t fully understanding & when I got on a topic I could see him switching off.
Even as a father of daughters.
It clicked for him when we got a dog - he realised I wouldn’t walk the dog in the woods at certain times and kept to more open social places. He asked me why and I said I can’t - I can’t because it could put me in a vulnerable place.
He got it he realised that women have to put a lot more thought into activities and that’s down mainly due to male actions.
Now our daughters are older he realises the freedom he had as a teenager isn’t the same for girls.

I find the only way is to chip chip chip away at it. Personalise the issue to me, our daughter, his sister. It is depressing . The narrative needs to change, the cost of policing mainly men and their behaviour needs to be acknowledged , people take notice when financial cost is spoken about. I hope there is a day when men collectively hold each other to account and work for change, but why would they ?

my DH will often say "I'm sorry so many men are so shit" if the topic comes up.

But it does feel as though you're being attacked, i think, if you're a man. If you know it's not you doing these things, it's still hard not to take it personally. So what I'd look for in a partner is willingness to learn. I sometimes have the same reaction when someone talks about White Feminism (as opposed to a general white feminists which is a differnt thing) until i remind myself that no, that's not how i behave, so i am not worried about my own behaviour.

The reason they so often come back with "that woman killed her child and went to prison" is because that really sticks in the mind. But if she did that in, say, the first week of july, we've had around 22 weeks where an average of 2 women are killed by a current or former partner. So sure, we can't reel off a list of names because there are so many.

I'm not really sure what the answer is here, though. Except for one thing: ensuring our children don't learn this minimising behavour.

A parallel might be how I feel in terms of conversations about racism.

Sometimes when people who have experienced more overt racism than me talk about their views and experiences it is hard simply to listen. It is also hard to know what I can do to change something that it is so big and so complicated.

Perhaps the key point that you and your husband should try to agree on is how to help your son to be considerate and respectful towards girls and young women.

It is also hard to know what I can do to change something that it is so big and so complicated.

like with the White Feminism thing, though, i always think the only thing you can say is "how can i personally be better? if i see x do you think i should speak up or leave it to a WOC to step in?" and things like that. I prefer to learn, and i know that i don't always get things right.

I once read that the reason the statistics for DV against men (by women) is so high is that when they finally report it, it is a) taken seriously, and b) any individual incidents they bring up are recorded too (which is as it should be) but that women, on average, report after (I think) 7 events? and then only report that one. I am well prepared to believe that there are many incidences of DV against men by women. The ones we tend to hear about, of course, are the ones where the woman snaps after years of abuse and kill the partner at a time when he is not actually physically attacking her. There are nuances to DV and how and when it is reported and recorded.

And anyone who calls me a feminazi gets an eyeroll and "that is so 2010, it's feminazgûl now".

going back to men and Int'l women's day. I've given up on it. I do my thing on women's day, and on Men's day i tweet resorces about men's health/mental health. But I've stopped engaging in the "wah why isn't there a google doodle" and "wah we need rape crisis centres for men". Because i agree with both, but i want men to engage with that, not be expected to do it for them.

Men like your husband are part of the problem.

Rather than accepting that there is an issue with male violence they try to minimise it or turn into a ''whataboutthewomen'' argument.

That type of behaviour is just not irritating, it allows men to get away with dodgy behaviour because their peers fail to challenge them and stand up for women.

And it is giving your son the wrong message.

So personally I would have a discussion with your husband to make it clear you want your son to grow up knowing there is an issue with male entitlement and male violence and to respect women. And that includes both parents giving him the right messages.

How to alienate half the population in one sentance.

So personally I would have a discussion with your husband to make it clear you want your son to grow up knowing there is an issue with male entitlement and male violence and to respect women. And that includes both parents giving him the right messages.

This is how you effect change. It’s not quick, it’s not easy. I’d also bring in how husband treats wife, and have him set an example. Not just for your son but also to your daughter and set standards for how she would expect to be treated and not accept anything less.