Why was slut ”reclaimed”, but prude and frigid wasn’t?

[YouAreNotBatman]

And why is virgin shaming still okey?

They all are, just the opposite sides, of the misogynystic coin trying to control women’s choices.

I know what you mean. 50 years ago women lived in fear of being ruined by the label slut or fallen (jeez, it's hard to type)' but now it's like a tightrope, young women have to avoid being labelled a prude and a slut.

To my mind ''prude'' means this is my boundary. Your boundary might change as you get older or what you were prudish about in one relationship you might relax about in the next, but I've always OWNED the label prude quite defiantly. The accusation made me laugh at times.

I think I grew up in a time when young men my age weren't all saturated in online porn. (born 1970)

and what I hear when I hear some asshole calling a woman a prude is that her boundary is being chipped away at.

@name78change I think some women have never experienced enforcing a boundary and having the man stick around so that is a concept that is unfathomable to them. The only way to have somebody around is to declare manifesto style that you're a sure thing. Obviously this is not just as a result of the times we are in, it's a very damaged sense of self in these times.

But I can relate. Every single time I ever tried to enforce a boundary I got dumped, mocked, dropped, written out (even by family, maybe especially by family). I'm ok, I'm older and I would genuinely prefer to be on my own than to be with somebody and hurt. But I see prude as wrapped up in having a boundary. A lot of women have only ever seen boundaries as the bit that happens before you get replaced, rejected, shamed or blamed.

@PeaceJoySleep I know what you mean, I do remember the ridicule for holding back and the pressure. You almost had to be seen/known to do "something" to not get THAT reputation, but not cross the line too far. I equally remember the devastating vitriol towards the girls (I'm thinking specifically late teens so quite young!) who were known to have done things on a weekend and how that would be spun and discussed by some and how it would define them for the rest of school, heck I still remember the stories and relate them to the girls when I think back. This was 20 years ago now, is it different now I wonder?? Do girls only get celebrated for this now? I find that hard to believe.

I remember the boys getting high fives...

Sorry to hear that. I suppose she was the kind of feminist who declares that 'sex work is work' and being a prostitute is actually empowering? So many mental gymnastics! Look at the stories of the German brothel survivors. Their stories are horrific.
Nobody owes anybody sex, so your decision to remain a virgin is perfectly valid. You don't have to have sex to be a fully functioning human being.

Wasn't all the slut walk stuff more about the issue of rape? With women trying to fight back against the age old stereotype of certain women deserving rape / asking for it, because of how they dressed or acted?

I thought of this thread yesterday while I was as listening to this Thought for the Day on Radio 4 - www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001fwj0 - although I have to confess I switched off before the end because the sheer number of straw man arguments and false equivalences drove me bonkers. The writer/speaker just didn’t seem to understand that some women might not be having lots of casual sex because they don’t want to! It must be because they’re influenced by religion or conservative politics 🙄

I do think it some ways the contemporary desire for labels has actually helped; asexual/demisexual etc. imply a more positive personal choice rather than a denial or one based on external influences of religion or culture. Although I’d never describe myself as demisexual (being a married 40-something I have no need to, thank god) it perfectly explains my own “prudery” during my teens and early 20s. I wasn’t particularly interested in sex until I met DH when I was 21, and then I was very interested!

didn’t seem to understand that some women might not be having lots of casual sex because they don’t want to! It must be because they’re influenced by religion or conservative politics 🙄

This is a big reason I really got tired of (certain) feminist / so called sex positivity, I’m not religious or saving anything (to me even thinking like this is so backwards) I’m just not interested.

I really wish the sex ed and general attitude would have been more neutral, that some do some don’t or do this amount or whatever.
And also lose the toxic language around sex.

Funny enough I’ve oersonally have found this pushing everyone to be hypersexual and that is the only way to be ’healthy’ more oppressive than anything else.

more so with guys - but certainly beyond a certain age women might not want to mention it to other women so as to not stand out as 'weird' and not mention it to guys as it would / could lead to them being weird.

In general virgins get called sluts too both literally and in so many words.

Interesting discussion! I felt ashamed for not having sex as a young woman in a working class area - 'frigid, virgin' and more detailed insultd around that theme were frequently used to bully by both boys and girls after the age of about 13/14 at school. I used to dread it coming up and I suspect plenty of my friends felt the same. I also probably rushed into a relation with the first 'safe' person I met at Uni to rid myself of the label. Really sad, looking back.

Apologies for silly typos, train posting from phone.

Firs, I’m sorry you too experienced that kind of bullying @beaucorbeau

But I also just want to say thank you for writing this.

Whenever I try to (okey, like teice) talk about this, people act like it doesn’t happen.
For whatever reason bullying is only wrong if you have had sex.
If you haden’t have sex or aren’t interested at all, it’s fair game.
And people say we won sexual liberation…

This is an EXCELLENT point

i saw the other some insta posts from a women who was promoting “sex work” and being “sex positive”

I can’t think of anything LESS sex positive for women than prostitution. Well - it’s very sex positive for men of course. But for women the entire point of prostitution is that their sexual pleasure is of absolutely no importance whatsoever. It is in fact sex negative. Even for these people who proclaim prostitution isn’t harmful - at best surely all they can say is it’s sex neutral.

it’s all about how can we best condition women so thst they can be easily used by men for mens sexual needs.

I wonder how many girls really actually actively wanted to have full sexual intercourse when they first did?

For many it will have been giving into various forms of pressure rather than something they really wanted or something truly in their own best interest.

Prude shaming should be taken as seriously as slut shaming, and it's not. Too many women are pressured to have more sex and do sexual things they don't really want to do, or get treated like they're boring prudes.

My last boyfriend did this to me but I'd been through it enough of it in the past I wasn't listening anymore and dumped him partly for that.
I consider it prude shaming when people try to get someone to hurry up and have sex for the first time so they won't be a virgin anymore. I still see that happening.

Everyone as far as I can see. Unless you're talking about a saint it's usually used as an insult.
Except in extremely traditional societies, virginity is usually seen as a negative.

Not quite “virgin shaming”, but “woman who won’t have sex with me” shaming is definitely a thing, yes.

Women do it to men too. If you look at feminists on Twitter who expose incels for the arseholes they are, often the insults focus on his lack of sexual experience.

Read a book in the 90s about radical celibacy. The notion that choosing to be celibate is both radical and empowering caught my imagination and I’ve never forgotten it.

You are reading different feminist Twitter to me then - the ones I see are focusing on the scary, woman-hating rape/enslavement fantasies (allocated mates, etc).

I don't understand the "reclaiming" of slut. To what end? To make it easier for men to slut shame and get away with it because it's not a big deal?

I don't like how often the word bitch is used either or any other slur towards women.

Instead of "reclaiming" how about we just say no to this dehumanising bullshit and stop using slurs towards women all together?

Bitch means a nasty person and has no sexual connotations these days. I still need an insult for nasty people personally.

I don't know I don't like bitch either, I'm more likely to say cunt than bitch, again bitch feels quite sexist because I think it's often used for specific female traits/actions. When Men say bitch it's quite misogynistic I think whereas cunt feels more generic to me.

"bitch, again bitch feels quite sexist because I think it's often used for specific female traits/actions."

We tend to use bitch for women and bastard for men. I don't think it's misandrist to call a man a bastard so it's not misogynist to call a nasty woman a bitch.

It's quite ironic that you think calling someone by the name for female genitalia is the worst insults, although I get of course that we don't think of the meaning necessarily when we use it, just like we're not thinking of illegitimate children when we call men bastards.

I suppose cunt doesn't offend me because I have female genitalia and it's up to me to decide whether I find that offensive? I don't know, I've just never found cunt offensive, it's female genitals so what? Whereas slut is specific commentary based on the expectation on female behaviour.

I can't explain intelligently why I find bitch offensive, it's my opinion not based on fact, you're right bastard is the male equivalent but then men aren't oppressed so it's not like for like. I think I don't like bitch because of the "bitchy behaviour" element which again is a specific commentary on female behaviour, like bossy, men don't get called bitchy. It always feels like that low blow when someone can't articulate why they don't like a woman specifically so she's called bitch and it feels like a reference to her sex, and then if she's being a particularly "bad woman", a bit like slut, living up to a female stereotype we aren't supposed to be.

Probably not making sense but as I say it's just my opinion, I will be more offended if you call me a bitch than a cunt. But my mum would say the complete opposite.