Surrogacy

[ffsonly46]

Wasn't sure where to put this but feel the posters on here will have plenty of views!

Watching the documentary last night by Tom Daly and I mention to DP that I was put off by his TWAW stance as this is all well and good but clearly they are not when you're not asking them to lend their womb for him and his DH to have children. I said I didn't like the commodification of women's bodies.

He pointed out that in this country no one is coerced or paid, I replied it's not so around the world and in general I was uncomfortable with the donation/selling of eggs and sperm.

We don't know anyone who has used a surrogate but do know people who have purchased and also donated sperm, he asked if I was against this also and I'm not sure, it is still commodifying children, all be it consensually.

Please can you share your thoughts on this?

I take it you don’t have any children at all then? After all you don’t approve of people having biological children until all orphanages are empty.

I'm unsure where you've got that idea from Simon. I think creating a child to take it away from its mother is unnecessarily cruel.

Could you point me to where I have said people should not be allowed to have their own children?

My issue is with using a woman's body, generally a poor woman's; and creating children to separate from their mothers.

Ah, so you think its okay for some people to leave children in orphanages, but not okay for others, understood. I’m guessing you have places yourself in the ‘ignore the children in care’ camp?

I will add. I have no children and have decided not to have children.

I'm concerned about the pressure on the planet and also feel the future is so uncertain.

Simon I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or maybe I'm shit at explaining.

I think creating a child to separate from its parents is cruel.

I think renting a woman's body is unethical.

Having a baby using your own body is neither of those things.

But actually yes I have decided not to have my own children. I'm hoping to foster or adopt in the future.

Ah, so you think its okay for some people to leave children in orphanages, but not okay for others, understood. I’m guessing you have places yourself in the ‘ignore the children in care’ camp?

I know you have skin in the game as an adoptive father @Simonjt and I understand that. But can you understand that women might have an insight you don't have about our bodies being commodities; bought, sold, rented, controlled, discussed, used as a political point, used as advertising, headless women everywhere? Men deciding how much we are worth to rent and buy so they can get what they want is a theme, I think you can see that.

Having a child isn't a right.

Just pointing out very obvious hypocrisy, you can’t tell people not to have biological children unless you’re including anyone having biological children until all orphanages are empty.

Not really bothered about anyones body as it isn’t relevant to the posters point.

Not really bothered about anyones body as it isn’t relevant to the posters point.

Thanks for the total lack of empathy. Frankly, not like you.

Simon you literally just proved Pratchett's point!

The fact that a baby woman's body is USED to get that baby, is COMPLETELY the point. Could not have been more of the point in fact.

Not really bothered about anyones body as it isn’t relevant to the posters point.

Oof. Are you really sure you mean that? You usually come across as more empathetic than that.

Also wanted to say the key difference you're missing is that having one's own biological child has no effect on other women AND does not traumatize the baby because it's not removed.

Really struggling to understand why you are refusing to see the point I and many other women have.

I normally really enjoy your contributions and often think you seem to have a much greater understanding for women than many men, but you've totally lost me here.

Yes, why should I (or anyone else) have any say over what anyone else chooses to do with their body? If you get to police someone elses body, then someone else gets to police yours, no thank you.

We've all heard about the bad side of surrogacy, where women are exploited overseas or there are hideous disagreements due to lack of trust or taking things way too fast. No decent person or organisation would condone unscrupulous people who are just in it for money, or talk of 'using' a surrogate as if she isn't a person.

But, how many children of altruistic surrogacy arrangements have told their side of things publicly? There will be more as time goes by. Will they tell you that Jane helped their mother to have them and is still a firm friend? What if they are truly happy, well adjusted and articulate, and tell you they are more than happy with who they are and how they came into the world? Will the anti surrogacy lobby believe them even when it doesn't fit their narrative? Are their experiences, and those of their families, less valuable than those of someone who has never been involved except as an academic onlooker?

We “police” what people do with their bodies every day, in myriad ways. For their own good, & for society’s good.

The best possible protection for everyone’s bodily autonomy comes from preventing bodies being legal and commercial commodities.

And for what feels like the millionth time.

It's not JUST about the use of a woman's body, it's about choosing to bring a child into the world that you will remove from its mother.

You can't sell organs, why should you be able to sell babies?

Isn't that the final frontier of unbridled capitalism?

Turning the human body into commodities? Turning babies into commodities.

It's really difficult for some people to understand this.

Yes, why should I (or anyone else) have any say over what anyone else chooses to do with their body? If you get to police someone elses body, then someone else gets to police yours, no thank you.

So you're happy with people selling organs? OK. Always easy when you don't actually possess the organs being rented. And aren't a poor woman in a majority world country.

FFS Simon you're coming across as a giant nobber about this. Someone pissed on your chips this morning?

Apparently so. It seems fairly obvious to me.

Of course if thats what they want to do with their body then they can crack on. If you don’t want bodily integrity thats fine, but you shouldn’t expect it of others.

How does wanting and valuing bodily autonomy make some a knob? Why would anyone want another person to control what they can do with their body?

Simon you're honestly fine with people buying kidneys? Buying hearts?

Surely you can see the danger in that.

We all know that desperate people will go to desperate measures, hence why in the majority of countries it's illegal to sell kidneys etc. However much the person whose kidney it is, wants to sell it.

If you're arguing that people can do whatever they want with their own body, well that's an interesting viewpoint, and definitely one that I would be interested in discussing.

Not really bothered about anyones body as it isn’t relevant to the posters point.

I’ll be honest I’m not that interested in the opinion of yet another obnoxious man coming along to tell women we’re wrong about yet another thing that only affects women.

Men have no fucking idea how dangerous pregnancy can be. And that is very relevant to the OPs point

This book by an Indian feminist sounds interesting

www.newindianexpress.com/cities/hyderabad/2022/aug/03/the-ugly-reality-of-surrogacy-2483431.html

Young girls risk losing their own fertility and sometimes their lives donating eggs, surrogate mothers the same.

The babies are separated from their mothers at birth to be given to total strangers or abandoned if they come out with birth defects (of which there is a greater risk because of the nature of surrogate pregnancies).

There is no control to make sure that the babies are not being bought for sinister purposes.

So, yes, I am totally against surrogacy.