Maybe silly - but help me explain Scout/Brownie type groups?

[iknowthismuchis]

DS is 6, his closest friends are mostly girls. He doesn't enjoy stereotypical 'boys' things, never has.

He's sad that he can't join Rainbows - he's not interested in Scouts. His friends go to Rainbows.

I don't know how to explain it to him. I'm trying to raise him as a feminist but in my eyes the only rationale I can see for activities separated by sex at this age is that Rainbows do "girls" things and scouts do "boys" things and I'm trying to teach him that he can like dance and sewing and pink and still be a boy but these rules are teaching us otherwise?

You can explain that historically girls were disadvantaged by the social expectation that they would remain at home and confine themselves to domestic spheres of interest and not get involved in public life.
And explain that in a lot of instance they could not gather in a location dedicated to woman/girls as they did have the financial resources or even the legal freedom to fund such spaces.
Plus that girl/women dedicated and girl/women led organisations were designed to encourage girls to be themselves and not be confined by stereotypical expectation which can infulance/ change an mixed group's dynamic.

You explain that the girls' mother's have decided that the girl's would benefit from membership of such a group, and that if the group is well organised it should not be focused on dance and sewing and pink etc.

You explain that you and your son will respect the decision and that if he wants to join a group, that Scouts should offer similar activites in a mixed sex group.

Guides and Scouts are International organisations. In some Countries, boys and girls are not allowed to mix socially. By remaining fir Girls only, the Guiding Association can continue to run in these Countries.

Try scouts. They do a big variety of things.
My dd beaver has done.
Cooking outside.
A nature walk
Cycling badge
Safety badges
There has been crafts etc but less of it.
There are several girls in the group almost half.

My dds did both enjoy rainbows (crafts decorating etc)

but eldest did nt enjoy brownies (too many parties, always at the hut)

a lot depends on the leaders.

I think both groups help them grow in different ways. Scouts is more teaching them the badges. Very outdoors.

Brownies a lot is done at home so developing their art/performing etc.

Overall if you put the scouts and brownies in the village affect against each other on a map reading/hike etc the scouts would be well ahead.

To be honest i think its a pity the groups cant be more similar. But i guess it gives the more girly girls something.
There are arts and crafts clubs

The position is that Girl guiding is a female only organisation and Scouts is mixed
Doesn’t matter if the guiding group play football every night

I have a cub and a scout, they both started in Beavers. Both quite shy. It's been the making of them - really highly recommend it. He certainly doesn't have to be a stereotypical boy, there will be lots that he enjoys.

Not enough boys and men wanted to do or run Scouts, Cubs and Beavers so they decided to let girls and women in to keep it going.
There were enough girls and women to keep Guides, Brownies and Rainbows going so they didn't need to change.

It’s not that Rainbows do girl things and Beavers do boy things.

it’s that Rainbows is just for girls, and Beavers is for boys and girls together.

I don’t think it’s a shame they don’t do the same things - my DD goes to brownies and it is all just exactly the things she likes. I’ve never pushed anything as being a girl’s thing or a boy’s thing but she isn’t massively interested in outdoor strenuous pursuits - but the brownies do go out on the field and play rounders, nature walks etc. It’s really not all crafts! They also do environmental things, yoga and so on. It’s just spot on for her range of interests and an emphasis on exploring and hiking would turn her off entirely.

@Summer1912 , you aren’t comparing like for like; Brownies are much younger that Scouts.

Rainbows starts a year earlier than Beavers, and don’t go camping - too young.
Brownies are roughly equivalent to Cubs. Both go camping depending on the preferences of the leaders.
Guides are roughly equivalent to Scouts. They do loads of active things in most areas - my daughter did two weekend camps and a weeklong camp every year and sometimes more.

I know it's not answering your question OP...

But in response to some of the other posters brownies etc really isn't all about crafts and performance. DD went on brownie camp last month - they came home with one craft, but had also done swimming, archery, climbing wall, go carting and a campfire. They were on the same campsite as cubs doing all the same activities - just in a girls only group.
With all of these things it varies a lot depending on who the leaders are. A friends son went on a cub sleepover and they just had a movie night - arguably far "girlier" than any of the brownie camp activities!

Can not just explain to him that sometimes boys take things over as they are often louder and more vocal than girls, so sometimes it’s nice for girls to have their own space to try new things. For example at DS noticed at that age that only boys played football at break. He thought it was quite said that the girls didn’t want to or didn’t feel able to play. Maybe the girls at Rainbows are able to try these things that are often taken over by boys.

At the same age our DS was very similar to yours. When we signed him up to Beavers we just said they did lots of different things (showed him the badges page of the website for examples of things they might do, including cooking and nature activities that interested him). He joined in a small group that included boys and girls so he was pleased as most of his friends at school were girls.

Same here. Our Beavers group did plenty of craft, cooking, nature etc. And lots of unisex activities. DS would hate it if they just played football and did sporty things but he likes the variety.

It can be dependent on the group, too. The brownies and guides in our area do a lot more crafting type activities than the cubs and guides, but that's down to the individual leaders.
DS went to Beavers, Cubs and Scouts and Beavers and Cubs were about 50:50 boys and girls, Scouts was about 80:20, but it will depend on group.
Beavers and Cubs certainly weren't boys only activities.

It's not really about boy/girl activities.
Guides was set up after Scouts as they didn't admit girls.
Internationally Scouts are widespread as a mixed sex organisation. Guides is smaller overall.
In more recent years Scouts has gone mixed sex, Guiding is still largely for girls. The activities each group will do is (in Guides) led by what they want to do and that the Leader can facilitate.
But your son can't join Rainbows.

It really does depend on the group. Due to covid dd only did 8 months in person with 18m virtual.
in person they did

movie night
games night
mothers day craft
easter egg trail
halloween party
1 trip
craft
pancakes
campfire
party
garden
looking at stars

We havent been offered an overnight brownies trip until recently and it was -performing/disco/circus/low ropes etc

so weekly activities not bad but slightly repetitive. also Spent a lot of time watching other brownies performing /showing stuff off and very little getting the hut badges (just one in the 2.5yrs!). So could be wrong but doesnt seem to have learnt a thing. (Stark difference to rainbows). It is not doing any good for weight gain all the extra party food.

whereas cubs for ds
Athletics
Archery
Caving
hiking
night hike
campfire
Knot tying etc.

I appreciate many girls arent necessarily into the hiking but i prejoining didnt really realise how different the groups were.

I would explain that scouts and guides were historical separate but that scouts now have both boys and girls. Then if interested in dance maybe get him in a class with a good teacher and encourage sewing ect at home
My son dances ( 6 classes a week) loves it and goes to beavers he can also knit a little also likes watching rugby and football.

@passport123 I was that boy ~25 years ago. Your boys will do well out of it.

Once they get to scout age, encourage them to self organise. Scouting provides a framework for young people to be independent and make some mistakes and learn from them. This should in part help to alleviate the shortage on adult leaders and pressure on those adults who are still there.

I didn't much like football, quiet, slightly (!still) cackhanded etc - scouting made me the man I am today. I did very* well out of it and I have recently returned as scout leader so my daughters and other kids can get the same.

• Several international camps, flying with RAF six times a year and friends for life. Even the local/simple hikes and camps were both fun and formative.

I would highly recommend beavers, cubs, scouts etc. They do lots of different activities and boys and girls can join. My non sporty, very arty DS loved it and stayed right through until scouts and is now in army cadets and loving that too. DD did brownies and it was DULL! Always stuck in the village hall rarely getting outside or doing anything beyond very basic crafting.

My teens do scouts in Belgium - it's v cool here to continue until 18! One of them is in a mixed scout group- it's brilliant! All this segregating is crazy in my opinion.

Honestly the activities depend ENTIRELY on who is running the group, how much time and resources they have. Leaders tend to be very open to suggestions and even more open to parent helpers and new volunteers!

Girls need their own space. When boys are in any group, they tend to dominate that group. This gets more obvious and acute the older the children get.

But rainbows don't just do girl things and Be wavers don't just do boy things (whatever that means).

My DD did outdoor activities, went pond dipping, went star gazing at an observatory camped etc throughout her guiding life.

DS did cooking, learnt to sew, did craft activities, sang songs etc throughout his scouting life.

They broadly do the same activities.

Exactly this. A well run Rainbows/Brownies unit doesn't just do stereotypical "girl" thing a like craft and dance. My group does camping, archery, bushcraft, kayaking etc. as well as indoor activities including baking, craft, science experiments, construction...

If your local Brownies unit just does basic craft and singing, find a different one.

I would explain it as girls weren't allowed into Scouts so they came up with their own organisation. When scouts allowed girls to join, guides decided to keep it to girls only. One part of this was to let girls have a space just with other girls as some girls thrive better in that environment.

Except that certain special boys and men are now allowed to join the brownies/guides.

The activities really depend on the skill set of the leaders. We have relocated a lot and Scouting seems to be similar wherever, but Guiding really varies, some units are more physical than others.