Intersectionality and inclusive feminism

[Amelanchier]

I have been reading comments on another thread and it has raised some questions for me. I ask these from a position seeking to understand different perspectives and consider how that changes my thoughts and behaviour.

I consider myself a feminist. I am white. I recognise that women of colour (is that just a US term or is it the preferred term in UK also now? If not then apologies, no wish to offend) experience racism and sexism. Both are wrong. Dealing with racism and sexism together must compound the difficulties WoC experience make life - I get that. What else do I need to know? What is it about modern feminism that excludes WoC? How can I behave differently to ensure my feminism includes WoC? Any recommended reading, for a UK rather than US perspective?

There was a thread on this in one feminist chat forum a few weeks ago where quite a few black women responsed and were ignored by white women who used the thread to debate. Maybe try reading that rather than expecting black women to repeat themselves ....

If you've ever managed to rent or buy a house, complete college or a degree, work out what a balanced diet should look like, book an appointment etc then finding the answers to your questions is within your scope of abilities.

The thing is, a lot of white women claim to want to become better 'allies' by asking what they can/should do in an attempt to display empathy. It's just a very roundabout way of making Black and brown women do more work. It's mentally taxing and oftentimes their response will be to 'debate' on the actual work of acclaimed Black feminists.

As a simple starting point I always tell anyone white who wants to learn more to dip their toes in by reading a book by Reni Eddo Lodge - Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race.

Yes! There’s a whole section in this book on exactly this - it’s an eye-opener of a book, and the section on black feminism is really strong.

I can't speak for Women of Colour not being one myself but I certainly recognise some of the criticisms.

My understanding is that a lot of relatively privileged feminists often don't think about feminism from the perspective of women less privileged than them.

Two examples - thinking about what you know of feminism in the 1970s ish - a lot of focus on a woman's right to go out and have a job. Whereas a lot of less privileged women (including pooree women from every ethnic group) were quite used to holding down 3 or 4 jobs in order to feed their families. The ability of privileged middle class women to access privileged middle class jobs being talked of in terms of "the right to work" must have been very galling.

More recently - I remember going to one of the initial discussion meetings when the Women's Equality Party was being established. The meeting was held in a cafe where the drinks were £4 minimum rather than the kind of place that will do a simple tea for £1. The discussion group I was in, on being asked what women's main concerns are, focused exclusively on issues that really only affect affluent middle class women - all things like wanting longer and more generously funded Statutory Maternity Pay, easier access to paid parental leave and better childcare options. Whilst these things are all good, there are vast numbers of women who wouldn't get any benefit from such policies - but those women weren't even in the room.

I think it's really important to "look around the room" (sometimes more difficult in a virtual forum like this) and have a think about who isn't there, whose voices aren't being heard, and which demographic groups might be somewhat over-represented by having easier access to the places where decisions are being made.

WoC aren't just dealing with sexism-plus-racism. The stereotypes that get applied to and which inhibit WoC are unique to WoC, and are not the same for all ethnicities.
Eg compliant Asian female trope.
Eg angry black woman trope.

I'm white, doing my best to understand and to help. Do read the book recommendation above.

Visiting the black mumsnet board as a respectful listener is also a good way to educate yourself. There are several recent threads on there that discuss specific issues that lead to black women feeling excluded and unheard in some areas of feminism.

This thread was moved???

Thanks for the book recommendation and other constructive responses. FWIW I meet many more working-class feminists (as they would describe themselves) than middle-class feminists but I live and work in a much less ethnically diverse area - 96% white from last census - than many in the UK. So I had recognised the class/affluence distinction but I had not correlated that with ethnicity. The few WoC/BAME women I meet and work with are all middle-class professionals.

(is that just a US term or is it the preferred term in UK also now? If not then apologies, no wish to offend)

It was a US term, the reason being that "coloured" is considered offensive in the United States due to its strong association with racial segregation and discrimination. The term "people of colour" thus came about as a more polite and acceptable expression.

It was never used in the UK, because we never had any need for such a term. We never had racial segregation, and horrific signs plastered over businesses referring to "Coloured". However, the British public loves to binge-watch American TV, and they love to binge-read American politics. The British people often picture themselves as starring in some annoying sitcom. That's the reason why British people imitate Americans in every aspects of their lives, adopting their annoying habits such as driving disgustingly massive SUVs, or using expressions like "people with colour" which don't actually have any historical basis in this country.

@greasyshoes I've been called coloured in a derogatory way many times in the UK ....

Me too, and I've never been to US or in a sit com.

Where do you get your information from @greasyshoes ?

I've been called coloured in a derogatory way many times in the UK ....

Yes, because as I explained in my previous comment, people in the UK import US language and terminology.

@greasyshoes I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here. Are you suggesting that racist language is ok when it's imported? Or are you just trying to tell us how clever you are? Or are you trying to derail a conversation about racism by talking about linguistics?

The term people of colour has been used for years in the UK. I should know I am one. Are you?

I didn't respond to this post when it posted on black mn becuase it referred to women of colour.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here.

All I did was point out that it's an imported term, which is really due to the British person's love of copying what they see on American TV shows.

Are you suggesting that racist language is ok when it's imported?

No.

Or are you just trying to tell us how clever you are?

No.

Or are you trying to derail a conversation about racism by talking about linguistics?

No.

The term people of colour has been used for years in the UK. I should know I am one. Are you?

No.

Maybe you should stick to what you know greasyshoes you're making an embarrassment of yourself.

Op I think you have seen a live demonstration of why black people can feel unwelcome in feminist spaces ....

One of my favourite things about posts like this is that it basically renders the UK as merely a bystander if not indeed a victim of its more violent American sibling from whom we learned all the 'bad' swear words and such. People who think like this almost always think the UK played the key role in ending slavery. I absolutely no longer get annoyed by these things - even historical revisionism and nostalgia in that the 'sun never set on the British empire'. Because it makes me realise that we are decades and decades behind in the conversations on race we should be having. People genuinely believe these things. It's not that they think racism is good but there's a fall out somewhere. I find it extremely fascinating.

One of the main reasons if not the reason I struggle to find any mutuality as a feminist between myself and white women is because this is what I see whenever I think of what a feminist looks like. These women are still alive today and I'm sure they would class themselves as feminists too.

I used the term WoC in good faith because that is the one I seem to hear most often now, and having worked for American companies that probably influenced descriptions used in their UK offices. Ex-colleagues have told me they hate BAME.

So please replace with whatever term is most appropriate and acceptable in your eyes. That term wasn't meant to be the focus of my post and I'm sorry if that put people off replying. Again, I value the constructive responses and I am reading and learning.

Power to Allison Bailey - she features in my mental image of feminists right now.

For me this raises a different question; what is it for? Is it for academic discussion or is it to create change? If to create change they why is the response 'we are not going to tell you what we want changed as that involves work, you have to figure it out for yourself'? I get that those who need change most have the least to spare but we are not talking here about black women generally, we are talking about black feminism. On the other hand, if black feminism is just an academic study then the response would be fair - unless you plan to take the Denton/Transfer approach to change. Though I can't see that working for a group that is not privileged, male and white.

If to create change they why is the response 'we are not going to tell you what we want changed as that involves work, you have to figure it out for yourself'

I will bite. You have to understand that experiencing racism isn't just inconvenient its traumatic. Genuinely.

Most black women I know have tried to ask for change time and time again, reliving traumas each time and nothing has changed. Even on this thread a poster has stopped by to explain that a word often directed at us doesn't exist in this country compared it's use to people driving SUVs.

The information is out there. I think a question is Why do you think black women should relive trauma when you could just read a book?

The information is out there. I think a question is Why do you think black women should relive trauma when you could just read a book?

Because they want change? And that requires awareness raising? For people who don't currently care enough to read a book to start to care enough to create change? To suggest reading a book is at least a positive action but better would be a set of easy read developed resources to direct people to rather than lecture people who are taking that first step towards you. Is this uneven, unfair and placing extra load on oppressed groups? Absolutely! Bit I am not sure how else you do it?

@Lovelyricepudding you have to understand that black people have been talking and raising awareness for years. If white people don't care enough to read a book they aren't going to listen. You're acting like you don't think black women have tried. They have but perhaps you haven't been listening.

It was never used in the UK, because we never had any need for such a term. We never had racial segregation, and horrific signs plastered over businesses referring to "Coloured"

I grew up seeing "no blacks" and "no coloureds" on signs in rentals, businesses looking to hire and some shops/clubs.

That was in London.