Intersectionality and inclusive feminism

[Amelanchier]

I have been reading comments on another thread and it has raised some questions for me. I ask these from a position seeking to understand different perspectives and consider how that changes my thoughts and behaviour.

I consider myself a feminist. I am white. I recognise that women of colour (is that just a US term or is it the preferred term in UK also now? If not then apologies, no wish to offend) experience racism and sexism. Both are wrong. Dealing with racism and sexism together must compound the difficulties WoC experience make life - I get that. What else do I need to know? What is it about modern feminism that excludes WoC? How can I behave differently to ensure my feminism includes WoC? Any recommended reading, for a UK rather than US perspective?

[VladmirsPoutine]

Yet there seems to be an expectation that we need to keep repeating ourselves despite the fact that what we say is generally ignored. I feel at this stage it is willful ignorance so white people don't have to change.

This is the thing. This is absolutely correct. The very goal of racism is to keep you from doing your work. If I have to stop to keep re-living my trauma and re-explaining myself to those who have no intention to listen to me then I will become exhausted and give up on making any meaningful change. This suits white people brilliantly because not only can they appear to care but they simultaneously can maintain the status quo. This is what racism in modern society looks like.

[KylieKoKo]

The fact that I have had this very similar conversation for the last three full decades, in both the US and UK contexts, shows how slowly this kind of change happens. 
I feel you @OuttaBabylon its exhausting. Yet there seems to be an expectation that we need to keep repeating ourselves despite the fact that what we say is generally ignored. I feel at this stage it is willful ignorance so white people don't have to change.

[OuttaBabylon]

@KylieKoKo

Only "they" want change? Here's the thing. The majority group needs to decide that change is wanted. Until then, no matter how much minority groups create awareness, write books, agitate, and protest, nothing changes.

Exactly and I think @Lovelyricepudding's post has exposed a big issue. Their feminism doesn't want to change things for black women enough for them to make the effort. Therefore their feminism does not include me.

@KylieKoKo The fact that I have had this very similar conversation for the last three full decades, in both the US and UK contexts, shows how slowly this kind of change happens. I read This Bridge Called My Back at a summer study programme in the early 1990s. I dare anyone of any ethnicity to read that collection of writing and come away claiming they can't see why women of colour feel the different ways they do. Empathy is required.

@Amelanchier Knowing and caring is what is needed. You asked this question, so I take that as caring. As a woman of mixed ethnicities and a few times an immigrant, I have had to acclimate to majority cultures and figure out how to survive and thrive in them. That is hard work, and I am exhausted. You never belong, you can be an object of curiosity. And yes, I feel bitterness about the fact that the world that I have to navigate prefers people who don't look like me, because it was made by people who don't look like me. And still, some of those people are asking me to make them aware of me. Exhausting. So I choose to focus on the people who actually care about me and read these kinds of threads so that I can prepare my children to be tolerant and ready for living as a minority. I hope it will be different for them, but it seems like it will be more of the same. The story of Child Q horrified me to the core. That could happen to my girls. Yet it's a fine line, knowing that I have to prepare them for this in life yet we encourage them to live a whole life, unencumbered. My dearest friend in the UK is a white woman. We are sisters. She cares about me and my family in a genuine way. She doesn't understand how some things feel different to me than they do to her, but she cares that I feel differently. Our daughters are best friends, and just this morning, my DD has said to me that there is no difference between me and X except our skin colour and our hair texture. Now imagine if those colours and textures were truly "equal". That would be something.

[KylieKoKo]

Only "they" want change? Here's the thing. The majority group needs to decide that change is wanted. Until then, no matter how much minority groups create awareness, write books, agitate, and protest, nothing changes.

Exactly and I think @Lovelyricepudding's post has exposed a big issue. Their feminism doesn't want to change things for black women enough for them to make the effort. Therefore their feminism does not include me.

[OuttaBabylon]

@Lovelyricepudding

The information is out there. I think a question is Why do you think black women should relive trauma when you could just read a book?

Because they want change? And that requires awareness raising? For people who don't currently care enough to read a book to start to care enough to create change? To suggest reading a book is at least a positive action but better would be a set of easy read developed resources to direct people to rather than lecture people who are taking that first step towards you. Is this uneven, unfair and placing extra load on oppressed groups? Absolutely! Bit I am not sure how else you do it?

Only "they" want change? Here's the thing. The majority group needs to decide that change is wanted. Until then, no matter how much minority groups create awareness, write books, agitate, and protest, nothing changes.

By the way, there is a lot of awareness of issues affecting women of colour out there already, you just need to have your eyes open and see them. Create your own awareness. But there's not a great big reason to do it, is there? Your life is different and apart.

[debbrianna]

If a person has enough data.on thier fadget to start a debate on mn, they will have enough data to Google different articles they can read online.
They will.not have to buy books

[KylieKoKo]

@Lovelyricepudding I know that you probably don't mean it this way but it's coming across a bit like you are blaming black women for their own oppression because they haven't tried hard enough. But I will assume good faith here.

Listen to black women. You don't need to read books, there is a wealth of free information out there even on Instagram and Tik Tok.

Start noticing the fact that when feminist panels talk they are often all white. Raise this with the organizers.

Notice when there is a room of women and all but one are white. Reflect on how it feels for you in a room where you are the only woman. Use your empathetic reaction to work out how you help this woman have a voice.

White women often assume that, as the "default" women, all women share their experience and talk over women of colour and tell their experience is not real. Men often do this to women so I am sure you are familiar with how frustrating this is. Learn to recognise when you do this and stop.

[Lovelyricepudding]

@KylieKoKo

@Lovelyricepudding you have to understand that black people have been talking and raising awareness for years. If white people don't care enough to read a book they aren't going to listen. You're acting like you don't think black women have tried. They have but perhaps you haven't been listening.

So what do you think is the way forward? It was mentioned earlier that WEP met at a place with £4 drinks and that excluded a lot of people. Books are a significant barrier to many, due to cost, literacy and - significantly - time. I have been campaigning for a different oppressed group and I would have got nowhere telling politicians, council workers or journalists to read a book. Lots of people have campaigned before me for minimal gains, any local changes we have managed to instigate are minimal and often barely keeping things standing still. I just don't know what the alternative is?

[C8H10N4O2]

It was never used in the UK, because we never had any need for such a term. We never had racial segregation, and horrific signs plastered over businesses referring to "Coloured"

I grew up seeing "no blacks" and "no coloureds" on signs in rentals, businesses looking to hire and some shops/clubs.

That was in London.

[KylieKoKo]

@Lovelyricepudding you have to understand that black people have been talking and raising awareness for years. If white people don't care enough to read a book they aren't going to listen. You're acting like you don't think black women have tried. They have but perhaps you haven't been listening.

[Lovelyricepudding]

The information is out there. I think a question is Why do you think black women should relive trauma when you could just read a book?

Because they want change? And that requires awareness raising? For people who don't currently care enough to read a book to start to care enough to create change? To suggest reading a book is at least a positive action but better would be a set of easy read developed resources to direct people to rather than lecture people who are taking that first step towards you. Is this uneven, unfair and placing extra load on oppressed groups? Absolutely! Bit I am not sure how else you do it?

[KylieKoKo]

If to create change they why is the response 'we are not going to tell you what we want changed as that involves work, you have to figure it out for yourself'

I will bite. You have to understand that experiencing racism isn't just inconvenient its traumatic. Genuinely.

Most black women I know have tried to ask for change time and time again, reliving traumas each time and nothing has changed. Even on this thread a poster has stopped by to explain that a word often directed at us doesn't exist in this country compared it's use to people driving SUVs.

The information is out there. I think a question is Why do you think black women should relive trauma when you could just read a book?

[Lovelyricepudding]

@VladmirsPoutine

If you've ever managed to rent or buy a house, complete college or a degree, work out what a balanced diet should look like, book an appointment etc then finding the answers to your questions is within your scope of abilities.

The thing is, a lot of white women claim to want to become better 'allies' by asking what they can/should do in an attempt to display empathy. It's just a very roundabout way of making Black and brown women do more work. It's mentally taxing and oftentimes their response will be to 'debate' on the actual work of acclaimed Black feminists.

As a simple starting point I always tell anyone white who wants to learn more to dip their toes in by reading a book by Reni Eddo Lodge - Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race.

For me this raises a different question; what is it for? Is it for academic discussion or is it to create change? If to create change they why is the response 'we are not going to tell you what we want changed as that involves work, you have to figure it out for yourself'? I get that those who need change most have the least to spare but we are not talking here about black women generally, we are talking about black feminism. On the other hand, if black feminism is just an academic study then the response would be fair - unless you plan to take the Denton/Transfer approach to change. Though I can't see that working for a group that is not privileged, male and white.

[Amelanchier]

I used the term WoC in good faith because that is the one I seem to hear most often now, and having worked for American companies that probably influenced descriptions used in their UK offices. Ex-colleagues have told me they hate BAME.

So please replace with whatever term is most appropriate and acceptable in your eyes. That term wasn't meant to be the focus of my post and I'm sorry if that put people off replying. Again, I value the constructive responses and I am reading and learning.

Power to Allison Bailey - she features in my mental image of feminists right now.

[VladmirsPoutine]

One of the main reasons if not the reason I struggle to find any mutuality as a feminist between myself and white women is because this is what I see whenever I think of what a feminist looks like. These women are still alive today and I'm sure they would class themselves as feminists too.

[VladmirsPoutine]

@greasyshoes

(is that just a US term or is it the preferred term in UK also now? If not then apologies, no wish to offend)

It was a US term, the reason being that "coloured" is considered offensive in the United States due to its strong association with racial segregation and discrimination. The term "people of colour" thus came about as a more polite and acceptable expression.

It was never used in the UK, because we never had any need for such a term. We never had racial segregation, and horrific signs plastered over businesses referring to "Coloured". However, the British public loves to binge-watch American TV, and they love to binge-read American politics. The British people often picture themselves as starring in some annoying sitcom. That's the reason why British people imitate Americans in every aspects of their lives, adopting their annoying habits such as driving disgustingly massive SUVs, or using expressions like "people with colour" which don't actually have any historical basis in this country.

One of my favourite things about posts like this is that it basically renders the UK as merely a bystander if not indeed a victim of its more violent American sibling from whom we learned all the 'bad' swear words and such. People who think like this almost always think the UK played the key role in ending slavery. I absolutely no longer get annoyed by these things - even historical revisionism and nostalgia in that the 'sun never set on the British empire'. Because it makes me realise that we are decades and decades behind in the conversations on race we should be having. People genuinely believe these things. It's not that they think racism is good but there's a fall out somewhere. I find it extremely fascinating.

[KylieKoKo]

Op I think you have seen a live demonstration of why black people can feel unwelcome in feminist spaces ....

[TheWeeDonkey]

Maybe you should stick to what you know greasyshoes you're making an embarrassment of yourself.

[greasyshoes]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here.

All I did was point out that it's an imported term, which is really due to the British person's love of copying what they see on American TV shows.

Are you suggesting that racist language is ok when it's imported?

No.

Or are you just trying to tell us how clever you are?

No.

Or are you trying to derail a conversation about racism by talking about linguistics?

No.

The term people of colour has been used for years in the UK. I should know I am one. Are you?

No.

[debbrianna]

I didn't respond to this post when it posted on black mn becuase it referred to women of colour.

[KylieKoKo]

@greasyshoes I'm not really sure what you're trying to achieve here. Are you suggesting that racist language is ok when it's imported? Or are you just trying to tell us how clever you are? Or are you trying to derail a conversation about racism by talking about linguistics?

The term people of colour has been used for years in the UK. I should know I am one. Are you?

[greasyshoes]

I've been called coloured in a derogatory way many times in the UK ....

Yes, because as I explained in my previous comment, people in the UK import US language and terminology.

[TheWeeDonkey]

@KylieKoKo

@greasyshoes I've been called coloured in a derogatory way many times in the UK ....

Me too, and I've never been to US or in a sit com.

Where do you get your information from @greasyshoes ?

[KylieKoKo]

@greasyshoes I've been called coloured in a derogatory way many times in the UK ....

[greasyshoes]

(is that just a US term or is it the preferred term in UK also now? If not then apologies, no wish to offend)

It was a US term, the reason being that "coloured" is considered offensive in the United States due to its strong association with racial segregation and discrimination. The term "people of colour" thus came about as a more polite and acceptable expression.

It was never used in the UK, because we never had any need for such a term. We never had racial segregation, and horrific signs plastered over businesses referring to "Coloured". However, the British public loves to binge-watch American TV, and they love to binge-read American politics. The British people often picture themselves as starring in some annoying sitcom. That's the reason why British people imitate Americans in every aspects of their lives, adopting their annoying habits such as driving disgustingly massive SUVs, or using expressions like "people with colour" which don't actually have any historical basis in this country.