Why do lots of black women still feel that feminism is nit for them?

[SpringHasSprungYay]

Isn't it sad that in this day & age, so many black women still feel that feminism is a white woman's thing.
How can we make things better?

In good faith

Maybe that’s the problem. What you see as good faith others see as patronising and unwanted.

It’s just not necessary to put your point across at times or place yourself in the discussion or announce you are not racist

I noticed that the recent Karen discussion was being discussed in Chat and BlackMN forum I didn’t need to rush over and put my view on there it was a discussion between black women though I contributed to the chat discussion

@amatsip

As a woman of colour I’m more concerned about race issues than gender. This attachment sums up my despair at how shit life is for people of colour.

I am born and live in a country where people of my colour are not wanted. That messes your head up big time.

😢😡

@BluKorner

The responses on this thread say it all. It again tells us we’re wrong for the way we feel. That we’re the ones causing the problems. OP started this thread, I presume in good faith, and she’s accused of stirring.

It’s only stirring if the PPs allow it to be, which, they duly are.

How so? Can you show examples?

@LittleWhingingWoman

What women of all colours and ages will start to see, what lesbians have already see and what gay men are waking up to - is that white middle class Transwomen - are the ones whose needs will trump everyone.

Black woman in the workplace vs white TW - who will get the promotion now?
I think we can all guess.

Absolutely

@BluKorner

The responses on this thread say it all. It again tells us we’re wrong for the way we feel. That we’re the ones causing the problems. OP started this thread, I presume in good faith, and she’s accused of stirring.

It’s only stirring if the PPs allow it to be, which, they duly are.

Thanks @BluKorner it was 100% started in good faith.

Sparked by some posts I'd seen on Twitter earlier today under #womanism.

Deliberately not on BMN. Not trying to be critical or goady. Just interested to hear people's thoughts on how we can do better really.

I posted in this section as it's the feminist board I'm usually on most.

I have found some of the honest and thoughtful replies here really interesting. Thanks 🖤

I'm going to articulate this badly - but when I see amongst my daughters classmates young white people calling out racism or getting involved in conversations with non whites about racism there is a mentality which as I said before serves to say "I'm not racist but that white person over there IS racist!"

Do it to Julia!

Now those same kids get to hop on the Trans and Queer bandwagon, which is what's happening in my daughters school amongst the teenagers.

Those kids (and it's mostly girls) have no real interest in actual racism and how it actually effects their classmates. Their intersectional feminism only covers their own feelings of not wanting to appear to be racist. They can identify into their own minority now and feel persecuted. They love fetishing that sense of persecution because now they feel that they are vulnerable like their black and brown classmates. It's a kind of warped vicarious cuckooing.

@LittleWhingingWoman

What women of all colours and ages will start to see, what lesbians have already see and what gay men are waking up to - is that white middle class Transwomen - are the ones whose needs will trump everyone.

Black woman in the workplace vs white TW - who will get the promotion now?
I think we can all guess.

So are you implying a BW would get a promotion over other demographics (based on being a BW)? I honestly don't get your point.

A reminder that Allison Bailey is in court in a couple of weeks time.

'We cannot achieve a just outcome for everyone while Stonewall are free to threaten women like me with the loss of our livelihoods and reputations. Stonewall must be held to account. I intend to do just that.'

allisonbailey.co.uk/

And Raquel Rosario Sanchez is waiting to hear back from her court case:

'The case argues that this institutional process had the purpose or effect of violating my dignity, and created an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating and offensive environment for me. I am suing the University of Bristol for sex discrimination, negligence, unlawful victimisation,'

www.raquelrosariosanchez.com/

Both women are still in need of support.

@LittleWhingingWoman

What women of all colours and ages will start to see, what lesbians have already see and what gay men are waking up to - is that white middle class Transwomen - are the ones whose needs will trump everyone.

Black woman in the workplace vs white TW - who will get the promotion now?
I think we can all guess.

Absolutely agree with this. The TRA agenda has gained so much momentum because we still live in a society when entitled white men make the rules. This is not going to change anytime soon.

@HumunaHey I'm saying in identity politics the scoring of points is going one way only now with one group at the top.

BW (or any other women) have never been in line for promotions in the same way white men have.

@LittleWhingingWoman

I'm going to articulate this badly - but when I see amongst my daughters classmates young white people calling out racism or getting involved in conversations with non whites about racism there is a mentality which as I said before serves to say "I'm not racist but that white person over there IS racist!"

Do it to Julia!

Now those same kids get to hop on the Trans and Queer bandwagon, which is what's happening in my daughters school amongst the teenagers.

Those kids (and it's mostly girls) have no real interest in actual racism and how it actually effects their classmates. Their intersectional feminism only covers their own feelings of not wanting to appear to be racist. They can identify into their own minority now and feel persecuted. They love fetishing that sense of persecution because now they feel that they are vulnerable like their black and brown classmates. It's a kind of warped vicarious cuckooing.

Articulated very well! But they are young aren't they. Teenagers are always going to want to belong to a group and are always going to be a little cringey no?

I'd rather they nail their flag to that mast than a racist one.

Thank you @DomesticatedZombie 🙌🙏

There was a really recent thread on here where many posters were saying that they were going to vote because Boris Johnson "knows what a woman is". However, he is on record saying black people have lower IQs and that Muslim women look like letterboxes. That post kind of typifies why some brands of feminism don't feel like they are for black women.

I have encountered far more discrimination that's based on the colour of my skin than my sex, however, when I've said this to some white feminists I have been told it's not true. The presumption is that I am lying or that I'm unable to understand my own experience in the world.

Finally, I see parallels between the way some people talk about transwomen (not everyone) and racist rhetoric about black people. One example is taking one criminal and using that as an example for the whole demographic. When you know how that feels for people to do it to you it's very uncomfortable seeing people doing it to others.

@Knittingchamp - I think you are giving uppity its American meaning and it doesn't translate the same here in the UK. I wouldn't use the word myself in any context but if I were to use it in some scenario I can't actually imagine then it would mean solely someone getting above themselves (whatever that might mean). It has no intrinsic racial meaning to me. Maybe it has to you, who knows. I will leave it here it's developing into a pointless argument.

I read an interesting book on this, that answers your question, @SpringHasSprungYay, although from an American perspective, called "Hood Feminism : Notes from the women that a movement forgot" by Mikki Kendall. I wouldn't presume to summarize it but it if you are really interested in this issue, it provides some thought provoking answers.

[quote Rightsraptor]@Knittingchamp - I think you are giving uppity its American meaning and it doesn't translate the same here in the UK. I wouldn't use the word myself in any context but if I were to use it in some scenario I can't actually imagine then it would mean solely someone getting above themselves (whatever that might mean). It has no intrinsic racial meaning to me. Maybe it has to you, who knows. I will leave it here it's developing into a pointless argument.[/quote]
I’m half black and wasn’t aware of its racial connotations. So the view that it’s uttering is hands down racist is wrong.

@KylieKoKo

There was a really recent thread on here where many posters were saying that they were going to vote because Boris Johnson "knows what a woman is". However, he is on record saying black people have lower IQs and that Muslim women look like letterboxes. That post kind of typifies why some brands of feminism don't feel like they are for black women.

I have encountered far more discrimination that's based on the colour of my skin than my sex, however, when I've said this to some white feminists I have been told it's not true. The presumption is that I am lying or that I'm unable to understand my own experience in the world.

Finally, I see parallels between the way some people talk about transwomen (not everyone) and racist rhetoric about black people. One example is taking one criminal and using that as an example for the whole demographic. When you know how that feels for people to do it to you it's very uncomfortable seeing people doing it to others.

This very much sums up what black friends of mine say too.

There is a definite perception that all gender critical women will vote Tory.
(And inherent in that is the supposition that all gender critical women are white perhaps?)

The opening post here was racist. And yet folk sit around here for 7 pages wondering about the reality of racism in the womens movement.

Folks will argue with me about "how was that racist" and I'll tell you for now I won't be engaging with sealioning so please don't @ me of that's your plan for the holiday weekend.

It is racist to centre whiteness as default. To centre a feminism led by and for white women as the definitive feminism. To assume Black women aren't doing the work, been doing the work. This isn't new. It's actually tedious for anyone with a library card. I beg you all read feminist theory. Please. Black radical feminist work. Womanism.

*This Bridge Called My Back: Writings by Radical Women of Color

*All the Women Are White, All the Blacks Are Men, But Some of Us Are Brave

*Combahee River Collective Statement

*Finding a Voice: Asian Women in Britain

*Heart Of The Race: Black Women's Lives in Britain

I find the posts discussing Asian women to be very condescending at times and what has been written about Muslim culture is prejudice at times. The lack of understanding about cultural impacts on lives and differences shows ignorance

What’s difficult when these issues are raised on MN Feminism and it’s pointed out is that the belief by many on here is that they hold no prejudice views (how could they) that their view is correct any other opinion is incorrect and the opinion is formed from lack of education

Often then the responses will become more academic terms such as lack of critical thinking often thrown about and then the self congratulatory when others who hold the same view pile in

It’s not always inclusive. I have also found some of the trans discussions nasty and I fully support women and girls having female only spaces

Finally, I see parallels between the way some people talk about transwomen (not everyone) and racist rhetoric about black people. One example is taking one criminal and using that as an example for the whole demographic. When you know how that feels for people to do it to you it's very uncomfortable seeing people doing it to others

I have had this discussion with my black women friends. I agree to a certain extent.

One friend suggested another friend shouldn't have called the police on her abusive ex husband because he is a black man. I didn't agree with this.

@KylieKoKo

There was a really recent thread on here where many posters were saying that they were going to vote because Boris Johnson "knows what a woman is". However, he is on record saying black people have lower IQs and that Muslim women look like letterboxes. That post kind of typifies why some brands of feminism don't feel like they are for black women.

I have encountered far more discrimination that's based on the colour of my skin than my sex, however, when I've said this to some white feminists I have been told it's not true. The presumption is that I am lying or that I'm unable to understand my own experience in the world.

Finally, I see parallels between the way some people talk about transwomen (not everyone) and racist rhetoric about black people. One example is taking one criminal and using that as an example for the whole demographic. When you know how that feels for people to do it to you it's very uncomfortable seeing people doing it to others.

Agree with all of your post except for the parallel with trans/racism.

Although I can see why it might touch a nerve to see a group being ‘excluded’ etc, most of the discussion around trans is not letting them into single sex protected spaces. Most people respect and understand that a person identifies as another sex, however they don’t want a man with a penis in their changing room.

@KylieKoKo, @MichonnesBBF and everyone else who has taken time to post such articulate and interesting posts actually answering the question posed by the OP - thank you. I feel it’s got somewhat derailed and your responses haven’t received the acknowledgement you should have. I hope other posters read and take note.

@Salmakia

The opening post here was racist. And yet folk sit around here for 7 pages wondering about the reality of racism in the womens movement.

Folks will argue with me about "how was that racist" and I'll tell you for now I won't be engaging with sealioning so please don't @ me of that's your plan for the holiday weekend.

It is racist to centre whiteness as default. To centre a feminism led by and for white women as the definitive feminism. To assume Black women aren't doing the work, been doing the work. This isn't new. It's actually tedious for anyone with a library card. I beg you all read feminist theory. Please. Black radical feminist work. Womanism.

*This Bridge Called My Back: Writings by Radical Women of Color

*All the Women Are White, All the Blacks Are Men, But Some of Us Are Brave

*Combahee River Collective Statement

*Finding a Voice: Asian Women in Britain

*Heart Of The Race: Black Women's Lives in Britain

I don't know what sealioning means.

But thanks for the suggested reading & sincere apologies if you find the op racist.

@Salmakia

The opening post here was racist. And yet folk sit around here for 7 pages wondering about the reality of racism in the womens movement.

Folks will argue with me about "how was that racist" and I'll tell you for now I won't be engaging with sealioning so please don't @ me of that's your plan for the holiday weekend.

It is racist to centre whiteness as default. To centre a feminism led by and for white women as the definitive feminism. To assume Black women aren't doing the work, been doing the work. This isn't new. It's actually tedious for anyone with a library card. I beg you all read feminist theory. Please. Black radical feminist work. Womanism.

*This Bridge Called My Back: Writings by Radical Women of Color

*All the Women Are White, All the Blacks Are Men, But Some of Us Are Brave

*Combahee River Collective Statement

*Finding a Voice: Asian Women in Britain

*Heart Of The Race: Black Women's Lives in Britain

Why are you not open to explaining how the OP is racist?

This is becoming a real problem how people are being branded as racist then the accuser won’t say how and just runs off.

So here is another question -
what is white feminism?