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Feminism: chat

Woman walking around town in suspenders and thong- empowering?!

81 replies

DoobryWhatsit · 04/04/2022 10:30

Instagram stunt, obviously. The "point" being made is apparently that there is nothing inherently sexual about female bodies, or the pieces of clothing that cover them (or not), and that if people view a woman in a teeny tiny bra, suspenders, thong and stilettos as sexual, then this just shows what an awful misogynistic society we live in.

The woman in question was particularly scathing of anyone crying "what about the CHILDREN!!", because yes, children exist, but so does her arse.

I mean, I kind of get the argument. Of course women shouldn't be seen as primarily existing for the titillation/gratification of men. But, we live in a society with accepted rules around decency. Sex is normal, but I feel very strongly that we shouldn't be exposing our children to sexualised images, and I'm afraid I do see sexy underwear as sexual! Am I a closet misogynist?

I don't know how many people will agree with me/understand what I'm getting at, but you lot are always really good at putting my "I really don't agree with this, but I can't quite form a coherent argument" feelings into actual words!

OP posts:
Routinepristine · 04/04/2022 16:44

It's just all a bit "aye,whatever". Don't see the point tbh. And it is far too cold to go out like that just now - is that the point?

Antarcticant · 04/04/2022 16:55

If she feels empowered by it, good luck to her, but let's not pretend this is a grand gesture benefiting women everywhere - it's meaningless.

Eloise666 · 04/04/2022 17:07

Attention and “like” seeking, it’s not really different from a man walking around in skimpy pants and a body harness - also unacceptable and would be seen as some kind of exhibitionist/outraging public decency.

I find this kind of stunt very self-indulgent and boring.

EBearhug · 04/04/2022 17:22

Wasn't she cold?

Underwear is not just about being sexual, but not all underwear is equal. If I'm meeting someone for a date I might wear silk lingerie, just in case. I'm at least going to wear a matching, newish set that fits well, because I will probably look better, and thus feel more confident. I'm pretty certain I wouldn't wear my oldest, baggiest cotton knickers that I only wear when I've got my period, even if I'm not expecting the date to see what underwear I'm wearing, and therefore it shouldn't make any difference. But we all know it does make an difference.

Onionpatch · 04/04/2022 17:28

I boringly looked up what empowering meant to understand the gesture.
One definition was about being more confident and feeling in control of your life. I suppose if that makes her feel confident and in control good luck to her, but i still dont get why it would make you feel this way.

MayMorris · 05/04/2022 08:26

Imho The stunt is not about challenging the sexualisation of womens bodies- it is about someone saying we should normalise sexualised presentation of our bodies.

So, way I’m thinking and apologies for cultural appropriation/racist overtones- not my intent at all. …. In some countries it is still the norm that women go about their day to day lives with breast exposed, buttocks exposed. It is the same with men, in some countries it is acceptable for men to walk around in small coverings of the genitals. The point is that in those societies it is normal to be dressed like that for non sexualised activities …and everyone, regardless of what is on their mind at the time, presents themselves roughly within those normals.

No one is going to walk into those countries (these days I hope 🤷🏼‍♀️) from a “clothed” society and tell people to cover up, or issues fines for indecent exposure. We all try to accept it as a cultural norm for a few remaining places.

It’s also interesting that in many of those cultures people are adopting western clothes that then cover these body parts- I do wonder why that is?

The issue here is that this is not a cultural norm in this country and these days most developed countries. As breast etc are sexualised, exposing them in general society , or semi exposing by non functional underwear,IS sending a message to others looking at her that she is at least thinking about sex or sexual attraction and drawing attention to her sex. Rightly or wrongly.

I think this is where it gets so very difficult. We all know and hopefully agree that women should be able to wear what they want without being subject to blame for a sexual assault etc, but there is a very nuanced balance. For instance women wearing extremely short skirts, exposing tops and very high heals in a bar or nightclub with just adults and drinking dancing is not unacceptable….it goes with the turf. And should certainly not be taken as a liscense that is is ok to do something non consensual. But that same outfit in your office is drawing attention to yourself in a more sexualised way. Still doesn’t say that it would be ok for non consensual acts, but it does non the less draw attention and some discomfort form other people being presented with a normally sexual image. And if underwear is being worn as UNDER wear, and not seen by general public, then it is no one else’s business if that underwear is “sexy” or a greying bra and big pants, or even commando. It is what we’re visually presenting that is the key thing Context is everything to me.

I think that’s why a lot of women object to trans womens or drag queens idea of “women” . In many cases it isn’t just they are wearing clothes associated with a feminine gender, but the sort of clothing we do associate with people looking to make a sexual connection, making the individual stand out as wanting to be viewed in a sexual way because they’re wearing them at times when culturally it is not expected- it’s a shock and awe thing, a power thing. I think my discomfort is because I am being forced to see someone who is shouting “sex” with their body language, at a time when I’m just wanting to get on with day to day mundane stuff. I’m being forced into a non consential involvement in their sexualised thinking. For that matter I’d feel the same if I was trying to do business with a women dressed in a very provocative way- unless I knew her and knew she was going out on the town later and normally came in dressed in standard attire.

It is very nuanced, and generally in society we’re good at knowing the differences in individual situations….however clearly everyone doesn’t and gets confused and ends up blaming the victim for “asking for it”. Whatever someone wears, it may get people viewing them to see them in a “sexualised” way and get them thinking about sex, but without consent any physical advances are still assault and a crime in my view. No matter what someone is wearing.

LadyOfTheCanyon · 05/04/2022 09:11

A huge amount of the general norms for what is acceptable wear for women is in line with a sexualised view of their bodies. Women have accepted/been told for so long that "looking nice" means pandering to the male gaze that when we say "I dress for myself" it's incredibly hard to understand how culturally and socially invested we are in toeing that particular line. It's almost impossible not to be affected by patriarchal norms when dressing, most of the time.

I know for example that I sometimes dress in a way I know my husband likes because on a basic level my 'worth' feels bound up with male approval. He mostly just slobs about in jeans and t shirts. I don't feel any less attracted to him when he's dressed like that, so why do I assume he will find me less attractive in sweatpants?

Women absolutely should be able to walk down the road dressed how they like without fear or judgement. But of course they can't. And of course women can buy into stereotypical sexy tropes like suspenders and stockings if they so wish, but these choices aren't made in a vacuum.

A beautiful young woman, slim, toned and dressed in underwear which is still the epitome of a lot of straight mens fantasies, walking down the road for Instagram shits and giggles, is doing nothing other than compounding the idea that this is what women should look like and how they should dress.

An overweight 65 year old dressed in mismatched dinosaur pyjamas, no bra and orthopaedic flatforms taking a walk would be assumed to have mental health issues.

AmericanStickInsect · 05/04/2022 10:57

It's just lazy 'feminism'.
Doing what the patriarchy wants for men = bad
Doing what the patriarchy wants for yourself = amazing, brave, groundbreaking, stunning, empowering. Please. Spare me.

Thelnebriati · 05/04/2022 12:23

'Empowering' benefits one individual, not women as a class.
A more radical analysis would ask why women still need to be empowered in 2022.

greasyshoes · 05/04/2022 17:59

I'm a man and I don't think there is anything wrong with what this woman is wearing.

huniepop · 05/04/2022 18:20

@greasyshoes

I'm a man and I don't think there is anything wrong with what this woman is wearing.


Of course not, because it was a performance for your benefit.
oliviastwisted · 05/04/2022 18:28

I am actually beginning to think female empowerment is a modern synonym for wearing fuck all because that is almost the only context I see those words being used.

ssd · 05/04/2022 19:05

Thats very true @oliviastwisted

UsernameNotAvailableHmm · 05/04/2022 19:54

I don't see it as empowering, although she looks happy and confident, she is simply wearing what a lot of men want to see, she is conforming
I suppose she is saving them the bother of spying on women in changing rooms
Would she still feel empowered if a man took too much of a liking to her
Someone who wouldn't leave her alone, was touching her, telling her how she was making him feel, following her, and so on
I'm not saying this is justified male behaviour, or that she would deserve it,
I know that men will bother women whatever they're wearing,
To me, feeling empowered would mean not having to wear the crappy uncomfy underwear
Feeling empowered is not conforming, not looking how women are shown they should look, for the sake of the male gaze

OnceAgainWithFeeling · 05/04/2022 19:57

Can I expect David Gandy in his tightie whities wandering round Chelsea soon……?!

twinklystar23 · 08/04/2022 17:12

I recall at a fucking family holiday camp (Haven) a group of women appeared in st trinians style dress. My then 5 yr old, who had just started school asked "Mummy, why are those ladies wearing school uniform?" I was fucking incensed at this, as I would be this oh-so-empowered-male-approving-seeking woman. Yes, their are children around, I do not personally feel I should be responsible for explaining your behaviour/appearance, to children, we do not want to see her arse.
It's nothing more than internalised misogyny, reinforcing views that women should be ranked in order of their physical attractiveness to men.
Wonder if she will be doing this in 40 years time? nah, thought not.

AnnUumellmahaye · 08/04/2022 22:31

The "point" being made is apparently that there is nothing inherently sexual about female bodies, or the pieces of clothing that cover them
Our bodies are inherently sexual, both male and female, covering up and show casing your other talents, allows other people to experience you as a whole human being and not just a sexual one.

MangyInseam · 09/04/2022 15:37

Bodies actually are inherently sexual. That's not all they are, but it's part of our biology, and it's something society has to deal with in order to function in a good way. People need to be able to be out and about without sex getting in the way, but also flirt, have sexual relationships, concieve children, etc.

One way we do that is by defining separate spaces for these things, and generally accepted rules about where and when things like flirting, or sexually seductive clothing, are ok, and where they aren't. So sexual activity is generally private. Even things like flirting, or more "seductive" styles of clothing are not ok in certain settings, say at work.

There are grey areas and sometimes there is a certain amount of disagreement but in general this only works if there is an overall understanding by people of which things are ok in which spaces.

But this idea that bodies aren't "inherently sexual" is always going to lead to unrealistic approaches and incoherent statements because the premise is flawed.

Lavenderlid · 09/04/2022 15:43

@greasyshoes

I'm a man and I don't think there is anything wrong with what this woman is wearing.

Would you go out with your mum while she wore that?
greasyshoes · 09/04/2022 22:24

Would you go out with your mum while she wore that?

No, but that doesn't mean I think there is anything wrong with what she is wearing.

StaplesCorner · 09/04/2022 22:29

I think the phrase I’m looking for is “silly cow”.🤔

Lavenderlid · 09/04/2022 23:12

So why the "no", then? Would you normally object to what a family member wears when out with you, or just when it shows most of their body?

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thinkingaboutLangCleg · 10/04/2022 10:17

@donquixotedelamancha

We've gone full circle back. This is just basing your worth on men's opinions again. Line you said, not only not empowering, it is actually harmful in a way to those who are impressionable.

This. I don't have a clue how anyone can think that is empowering.

I don't think it's full circle, I think feminism has never regained the ground lost to 3rd wave, 'sex-positive' feminism and has been in retreat on a some fronts (in terms of practical outcomes for women) since the 90s.

The naratives that humans can change sex, porn is empowering and women are as physically strong as men are all eating away at the understanding most people used to have, in my youth, of why feminism was necessary and what work still needs to be done.

Exactly.

If it was empowering, it would be something powerful people had done.
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 10/04/2022 10:18

@greasyshoes

I'm a man and I don't think there is anything wrong with what this woman is wearing.

What a surprise!
greasyshoes · 10/04/2022 12:34

So why the "no", then? Would you normally object to what a family member wears when out with you, or just when it shows most of their body?

Mum being a family member has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't go out for a walk with any man or woman who was scantily clad, just because it would draw attention and I dislike being noticeable in public. I'm not sure what point you are trying to get at here.

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