PSHE teaching women and trans men give birth….

[happydappy2]

DD in Yr 10 came home yesterday and mentioned in the PSHE lesson, the teacher was continually mentioning ‘women and trans men who give birth….’ I have asked the school for the lesson plan and asked how is this relevant. Would you be concerned? Is it safe for a woman on testosterone to have a baby?

Some trans men have given birth. Whether it’s safe for an individual is surely better them and their doctor, not sure why you would be concerned?

I'm nervous to be first to reply but I think thats right. At least they're not erasing the word women.

I'd be surprised if a woman on testosterone could get pregnant. Particularly if female hormones were being suppressed. I'd guess, although I have very limited medical/scientific knowledge, that testosterone treatment would have to be suspended in order for that person to get and remain pregnant.
Is there anyone out there who actually knows how this works?

You don’t have to take testosterone to be a transman.

Because it is a really complicated thing to explain to young adults. They don't have the expereicne to work out the social mores, the medical realities, the complexities of this.

Now, if the teacher were an expert, the session was specifically on how being a transman and a mother is cultrually complex and carries its own unique medical issues, and the session was aimed at, drawn up for a group of tenage girls contemplating transition to being transmen. If it included the truth about the drugs, the permanent changes, the damage to health, the legailities, the medical issues, the rate of detransitions etc etc etc. Then I'd be championing it. Just as I would be championing a simiar session for teen boys contemplating transitioning to being transwomen.

But it isn't, the teacher;'s are not, the teens involved are mostly not and the whole thing is a point scoring, tick boxing, woke taradiddle.

All noise, signifying fuck all!

Well it is actually true, as long as the word Trans is used.
Whether it’s a good idea or not is a whole different matter

Transmen are a type of woman. They prefer not to be described as women, so should be separated out in descriptions. The teacher is using terms respectful to both trans individuals and to women. Sounds fine.

Well the teacher is correct.

She's not wrong. Transmen have given birth. You also don't need to be on testosterone to be one.

I really don't like this, actually. The "And" suggests that they are not women, which is a faith-based ideological position. We seem to be quicker to think of the comfort this might give any committed "trans boys" in the class than to the damage this does on a philosophical and societal level to all the girls, however they do or don't identify. And what about the discomfort of the girls in the class who question all this, and have to listen to their teacher promote it, and may feel intimidated by that? I don't like authority figures, like teachers, lending credence to this belief system.

I don't think the testosterone question is relevant really - people who consider themselves to be trans do not necessarily take hormones or make any other physical changes.

The only question is whether it's appropriate or necessary to add 'and trans men' to 'women' in this context, since trans men are, factually speaking, women. It comes down to whether you think we should 'be kind' or be truthful.

Probably ok to mention but disproportionate to add ' and transmen' every time.

And if they're having PSHE lessons about pregnancy etc, I hope they include info on life choices which may negatively impact fertility.

The "and" insinuates that someone other than women gives birth and therfore reduces women to identity based definitions and not biological classification.

This is inaccurate and harmful as its gaskighting children still.

However much you hate trans people, you can’t pretend they don’t exist.

Knowing that some female people consider themselves trans men rather than women is not going to damage girls for goodness sake.

There are some genuine contested points about trans people and single sex spaces, but wanting schools to avoid any mention of trans people in case it damages children just makes you sound like the homophobes of the 80s & 90s who claimed letting children know gay people existed would corrupt them and destroy the family etc etc

It would be better to say women, which includes transmen, can give birth because some people think that transmen are men.

Wording sounds fine? I don't understand the problem.

@busyeatingbiscuits

However much you hate trans people, you can’t pretend they don’t exist.

Knowing that some female people consider themselves trans men rather than women is not going to damage girls for goodness sake.

There are some genuine contested points about trans people and single sex spaces, but wanting schools to avoid any mention of trans people in case it damages children just makes you sound like the homophobes of the 80s & 90s who claimed letting children know gay people existed would corrupt them and destroy the family etc etc

That's the whole point of being bloody careful about how alternative realities are introduced to teens.

A message that transmen are women and that yes, there are transmen mother's in the UK could be usefully included. Carefully, with truth, not ideology and certainly not as a blanket / global truth.

We need to be able to talk about the important differences as well as the basic biology. Otherwise we may as well be discussing flinponerts and molpeddles.

Basic terminology and science and then the alternatives, the disparities etc.

Oh, and yet again. Stop with the 'hate'. You know it isn't true. It's the pathetic attempt to undermine, ridicule the feelings of women who dislike TRA machinations and the blind acceptance of an ideology that is being pushed to replace basic biology.

I think this is pretty good tbh. I understand the argument that "including" rather than "and" would be better, but I wouldn't complain about it.

I wouldn't be okay with it in a biology lesson - I'd expect the teacher to explain in that context that trans men may not consider themselves women but in biological terms they are.

@SamphiretheStickerist

Oh, and yet again. Stop with the 'hate'. You know it isn't true. It's the pathetic attempt to undermine, ridicule the feelings of women who dislike TRA machinations and the blind acceptance of an ideology that is being pushed to replace basic biology.

Yes, and also the "you can't deny they exist" stuff.

I don't deny that some people call themselves X.

I reserve the right to deny that they actually are X, or that X is a meaningful or appropriate term in all contexts.

I'd go with 'Women, including some who identify and present as men, give birth.'

I wouldn't be okay with it in a biology lesson - I'd expect the teacher to explain in that context that trans men may not consider themselves women but in biological terms they are

Yes in.a biology lesson you need ti he asked to define your terms. Woman- adult human female. Female- sex class that produces large gametes that can be fertilised by male gametes.

Etc etc. The definitions can go on and on.

If you were asked questions relating to the identity side it stops at " anyone who thinks they are a man" man.amd woman identities have never been explained beyond feelings which aren't explained and stereotypes that most don't follow anyway.

The inability to answer the questions would undermine the whole lesson.

You cannot have a lesson including things you cannot answer nor define

Write a stiff letter to the school about their bigotry. What about females who identify as non-binary?

You know who aren't teaching their kids this?
Here is a clue. They are both busy expanding their empires while we are obsessed with this stuff.

Unfortunately, there may be very real harm done to girls/transboys if transmen are included too glibly in information on giving birth. There's evidence that some may start medical and even surgical transition without being clear that their fertility may be impacted.