How do I get DS to respect women

[Halfling]

DS 13yo has been caught is school writing a terribly rude note about a girl in his class. This is not the first time, as earlier also I had read an inappropriate text on his phone describing the same girl. We had a long discussion about respecting girls as his equals and not as objects.

In my mind I had handled this well and I am very heartbroken that he is continuing to be so disrespectful. I reeled when I read the note because I did not expect him to use such language about a girl he has been friends with since preschool.

DS goes to a school renowned for discipline and we know most of their friends and their families. I am a proud feminist and my DH is respectful, progressive and a great role model. When I look around, I see no reason why DS should be behaving like this. He does play Fortnite on weekends and this could be a source. I don't know much about gaming but understand it can contribute.

It's my responsibility to shape his values and clearly I am failing. How can I help him reflect on what he is doing and make positive change? Will really appreciate resources, books and personal stories that can help. Thank you.

[Imsittinginthekitchensink]

Not able to answer your question re resources, but I just wondered what consequences he received for his behaviour? If he has done it a second time, it implies your/school's response to the first time was minimal.

[Devilmakes3]

Why is he bullying Halfing? That is what I would be wondering. Not to lose sight of the fact that his behaviour is directed at a female but something is wrong inside him and he is handling that by bullying someone else.

Generally unless people are suffering from a PD they do not set out on a morning to hurt other people. The reasons people pick on other people typically are to pull themselves up by pushing someone else down, to-regain some power. His target is a girl and yes that is an issue around where he sees women and girls but I suspect the bullying itself is an issue with his self esteem and I would start by trying to address that first. Maybe he is struggling socially in school or in friend groups and that is making him feel weaker and he wants to regain that power some how.

[TyrannysaurusXXrightshoarder]

It’s possible he’s had a personality transplant at the age of thirteen but tbh I’d say it’s probably rooted further back that an that whether you’ve noticed or not.
How does your DH treat you?
How has your DS treated you growing up?
You say you’re a proud feminist but then you say this….
It's my responsibility to shape his values and clearly I am failing
Nope. It’s the responsibility of both of his parents. You and your DH. Tbh the fact you have chosen those words to castigate yourself and highlight your failings alone says a lot.

[Halfling]

The first time when I discovered the rude text, both DH and I had several discussions around respecting women, treating them as equals, not dehumanising them, how quickly this attitude can escalate etc. As a consequence we took away his Xbox for a month, restored all his deleted WhatsApp messages to check and stopped him taking his phone to school for a week. Clearly quite ineffective it would seem... the root cause is his attitude towards the girls. It's heartbreaking because he has been always so well behaved and affectionate!

[AnyFucker]

Unfortunately, although you will have laid the groundwork as parents when they get to this age the lure of fitting in with peers can overtake them

Usually it is temporary and they find themselves again. With boys I reckon it is about 19yo. Hang in there and stay steadfast, accepting that your influence is waning

[Devilmakes3]

Halfling but his behaviour is going to be motivated by his emotions, how he is feeling, punishments addresses the behaviours but they do nothing to help him with the complex emotions underlying the behaviour. To address this you need to get back to the source of the issue. Why is he feeling the need to write nasty stuff about this girl. What is driving the behaviour? And I agree with the PP it is very important that your DH is proactive with this too.

[TyrannysaurusXXrightshoarder]

both DH and I had several discussions around respecting women
You and your DH had discussions? Did you then also both speak to your DS together? What did your DS say at the time?

[Halfling]

@TyrannysaurusXXrightshoarder

both DH and I had several discussions around respecting women
You and your DH had discussions? Did you then also both speak to your DS together? What did your DS say at the time?

We had these discussions with DS

[Halfling]

@TyrannysaurusXXrightshoarder

both DH and I had several discussions around respecting women
You and your DH had discussions? Did you then also both speak to your DS together? What did your DS say at the time?

He said he was sorry and tried to put the blame on his friends. We did not let him get off lightly and forced him to take accountability for his actions

[Motnight]

AnyFucker has said it better but honestly teenagers can have personality transplants overnight and become absolutely vile. In spite of parenting.

It seems to me that you are doing all the right things. Has school been involved?

[UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea]

Unfortunately he is inhabiting a deeply misogynistic world of online porn, incels, the sexualisation and othering of women etc. etc. There's only so much you can do.

Monitor his internet and social media use and hope he chooses better male and female role models through school, sports etc.

And talk to the school about how they deal with misogyny through PSHE. Maybe they can help?

[VariableVera]

You have to look at this in context op. The school seems on top of discipline but what is his friendship group like? Have you looked at and checked in with any of the chat that accompanies Fortnite? Thirteen is still quite young and they can be easily influenced at this age. Others on here will disagree but I still think it's important to check in with the chat on-line at this age from time to time. I think Fortnite or similar is the most likely source; I would perhaps be looking to limit his hours on-line and redirect his activities to something more productive.

[Halfling]

@TyrannysaurusXXrightshoarder

It’s possible he’s had a personality transplant at the age of thirteen but tbh I’d say it’s probably rooted further back that an that whether you’ve noticed or not.
How does your DH treat you?
How has your DS treated you growing up?
You say you’re a proud feminist but then you say this….
It's my responsibility to shape his values and clearly I am failing
Nope. It’s the responsibility of both of his parents. You and your DH. Tbh the fact you have chosen those words to castigate yourself and highlight your failings alone says a lot.

I said it was my responsibility as I am speaking for myself right now but my DH and I take equal responsibility when it comes to our DC.

[MaChienEstUnDick]

I don't have any advice per se, apart from to say you shouldn't be taking this all on board as your 'fault'. That's just playing into the narrative that women, specifically mothers, are responsible for Every Thing.

Societal and peer pressure is enormous and this is exactly when it kicks in. All you can do is keep talking to him, keep an eye on his online use, and keep modelling the behaviours at home that you want to see outside home.

It's also a good time to think about male role models from outside the home. Is there someone else he can talk to? I'm as feminist AF but it does us no good to pretend that, for eg, if a young lad of 13 suddenly has access to porn, it is going to mess up their heads in terms of how they think about women and girls. We have to try and build safe outlets, trusted adults, where a kid can say 'I saw this and it scared me and now when I look at this girl next to me, I don't know how to be'. That we have to do that in conjunction with protecting girls and cracking down extremely hard on bad behaviour is very difficult of course!

[Halfling]

@AnyFucker

Unfortunately, although you will have laid the groundwork as parents when they get to this age the lure of fitting in with peers can overtake them

Usually it is temporary and they find themselves again. With boys I reckon it is about 19yo. Hang in there and stay steadfast, accepting that your influence is waning

You are right... he is easily influenced by peer pressure. However he needs to still be accountable for his own actions

[Halfling]

@Motnight

AnyFucker has said it better but honestly teenagers can have personality transplants overnight and become absolutely vile. In spite of parenting.

It seems to me that you are doing all the right things. Has school been involved?

School is involved now, he has gone to see his headmaster and has a detention next week.

[Halfling]

@Devilmakes3

Halfling but his behaviour is going to be motivated by his emotions, how he is feeling, punishments addresses the behaviours but they do nothing to help him with the complex emotions underlying the behaviour. To address this you need to get back to the source of the issue. Why is he feeling the need to write nasty stuff about this girl. What is driving the behaviour? And I agree with the PP it is very important that your DH is proactive with this too.

I am struggling to get him to be open and honest about his feelings and motivations. He is either going silent or blaming others for egging him on.

[Devilmakes3]

I am struggling to get him to be open and honest about his feelings and motivations. He is either going silent or blaming others for egging him on.



Yes Halfing that is pretty normal for that age group. They sometimes don’t even have the vocabulary to explain. I find asking my teens generally about an emotion and asking them have they ever experienced that emotion and asking them to give an example of when they experienced it can help. Or you suggest to him the names of the emotions he might be feeling and let him say yes or no. During a walk where you aren’t facing him can help. Later in the evening in darkness so he doesn’t have to look at you and you can’t see him even better. Very short conversations that are low pressure and intensity work well and maybe in time the damn will burst. No judgement, no lectures just listening really helps too.

It can be like getting blood out of a stone but it sounds like you absolutely know that this is a very good kid and this behaviour is driven by his peer interactions (I think it is likely he is feeling insecure in that peer group) so it can help him to try to navigate this experience and to help him to be able to decipher and communicate his emotions for his future relationships.

[Gooders1105]

Read Men who hate women by Laura Bates. It is amazing (but bloody depressing). There’s a paragraph about boys in secondary school that every parent should read. There’s also organisations in the final chapters that work with schools. Could be worth suggesting to the schools themselves

[crazyjinglist]

Unfortunately, although you will have laid the groundwork as parents when they get to this age the lure of fitting in with peers can overtake them.

^This. It takes a strong person to resist the prevailing influences at school, and unfortunately these kinds of sexist remarks (and often racist and homophobic as well) are incredibly common amongst boys of that age. In some of them it's more deep-rooted and based on views their families hold. In lots of them it's bravado and a desire to shock, or to not be considered weak or soft by the others.

I have a 13yo ds too, and some of the stuff he tells us about what the boys in his year say is awful. Fortunately ds has a very right-on, very strong-minded 16yo sister whose influence on him is huge, and with whom he's pretty close. A bit too huge an influence in some ways, but it does have its advantages!

[dottydodah]

Sadly although your Son has been brought up by caring parents with a healthy outlook ,he will be sadly still under the influence of the wider world with all the porn sites ,general degradation of women and those most unfathomable of beings "Other Teenage Boys"! Maybe try and talk to him in the car? Its good that the School are getting involved .13 is still very young so I think you have time to turn this around .Probably not overnight though ! When they are with other young boys they tend to show off ,so hes probably right when he says others have egged him on.Do you have other girls ,cousins ,friends daughters at all .Explain to him and ask how he would feel if this happened to them?

[Hoppinggreen]

Keep an eye on his online use, it’s probably porn that’s influencing his behaviour

[LaChanticleer]

It's my responsibility to shape his values and clearly I am failing. How can I help him reflect on what he is doing and make positive change?

Please don’t blame yourself entirely! They say “It takes a village” - sometimes that village is full of sexist racist knobs.

We live in a system of patriarchy. The individualism of the 1980s and 90s did terrible damage to women and girls’ understanding of the systematic sexism to which they are subject (hello liberal feminism).

YourDS is probably surrounded by sexist boys and it sounds like the teachers are big on discipline and not necessarily values.

Could you stop doing “feminine” style stuff for him - cooking, washing etc? Let him see what women do and how reliant he is on your invisible and unpaid labour.

And your DH needs to have a word as well, about ways of being a man.

[ldontWanna]

What's prompting this behaviour though?
Why has he suddenly turned on a girl he previously was friends with?
Why are his friends egging him on against her and what is actually going on?