Looks like this could be added to "Invisible Women"

[SapatSea]

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/04/women-more-likely-die-operation-male-surgeon-study

Women 32% more likely to die if operated on by a man rather than a woman (large study). 18% more likely to have post surgery complications.

That’s really interesting.

Wow. That is depressing. I hope that now the research is out there, the profession will work to improve outcomes. The article also states that there is no difference for male outcomes between male and female surgeons.

I'd love to see the numbers involved because I guess potentially if only a tiny number of women are having some operations and there's a small number of female surgeons it could skew the data? Maybe?

On the other hand it seems to be a pattern of worse outcomes with male surgeons.

I'd love to know WHY though, any ideas?

There was a thread about this a week or two ago I think - it certainly does give pause for thought.

@FoxgloveSummers

I'd love to see the numbers involved because I guess potentially if only a tiny number of women are having some operations and there's a small number of female surgeons it could skew the data? Maybe?

On the other hand it seems to be a pattern of worse outcomes with male surgeons.

I'd love to know WHY though, any ideas?

This, according to the royal college of surgeons, men outnumber women 8 to 1, but over 60% of students who enroll are women. so a vast number are discouraged for some reason.

I read an article about a female heart surgeon in canada, no idea if the same applies here but she said it was a lot harder for her to learn then the men because the teachers were more reluctant to give women hands on training and when they did their mistakes were taken more seriously for example if tom made a mistake, well tom made a mistake. but if linda made a mistake well that means all women are not cut out to be surgeons.

she faced opposition from the men at every turn and was left out of things, she said its a very male dominated field and she was eventually fired and took her medical hospital to court for sexism and won as they couldnt answer why she was fired, other then the fact the males complained about her and said she was causing a toxic environment.

I saw this earlier and thought the same about invisible women and bias within healthcare. It made me think more broadly about how male and female doctors differ, I've certainly noticed a trend for males brushing me aside when I raise concerns about female health and for generally being more condescending. That isn't to say all male doctors are like this of course.

@FoxgloveSummers

I'd love to see the numbers involved because I guess potentially if only a tiny number of women are having some operations and there's a small number of female surgeons it could skew the data? Maybe?

On the other hand it seems to be a pattern of worse outcomes with male surgeons.

I'd love to know WHY though, any ideas?

The Guardian article says it is a study of 1.3 million people, and the journal piece linked from the news article, which is what it is about, gives quite a detailed breakdown of the figures. Are there any additional ones you are after? jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/article-abstract/2786671

Looking at the surgeons experience in Canada, I wonder if it’s a ‘best of the best‘ situation

It is a well known phenomenon in my male dominated profession. Almost all of the few women you come across are exceptionally good. Because so many get discouraged, I think there’s something about the white hot rage Of knowing how much better you are that keeps you from dropping out. I did overhear a fab quote about knowing we had true equality when we could churn out as many mediocre female candidates as male ones.

So all the ‘ok‘ ones drop out, and the remainder get treated so much more harshly (like when the Tom makes a mistake above) that those who can take the unfairness do end up so much better.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense! Or to put it another way, male surgeons are allowed to be a bit crap sometimes.

Thanks for the abstract link which I missed when reading the article. I guess what I mean is, if you make it roughly 1%ISH of female patients dying under all surgeons, that’s around 929 under female surgeons but 6673 under male surgeons. (Obviously it’s a bit higher than that with male surgeons but you can see the scale is very different and I wondered if those different sample sizes affect it at all.)

@Zwischenwasser

Looking at the surgeons experience in Canada, I wonder if it’s a ‘best of the best‘ situation

It is a well known phenomenon in my male dominated profession. Almost all of the few women you come across are exceptionally good. Because so many get discouraged, I think there’s something about the white hot rage Of knowing how much better you are that keeps you from dropping out. I did overhear a fab quote about knowing we had true equality when we could churn out as many mediocre female candidates as male ones.

So all the ‘ok‘ ones drop out, and the remainder get treated so much more harshly (like when the Tom makes a mistake above) that those who can take the unfairness do end up so much better.

No, that sort of effect wouldn't explain this finding.

They found that men who had an operation had the same outcomes regardless of whether their surgeon was male or female. However, women experienced better outcomes if the procedure had been performed by a female surgeon compared with a male surgeon. There were no gender differences in how surgery went for either men or women operated on by a female surgeon.

Yes I was about to say that - that the 'more allowance for male mediocrity' doesn't explain the equal outcomes for male patients.

It's a very odd finding. The most obvious interpretations I find hard to credit - I don't believe that male surgeons somehow are less interested as a group or even a lot of the time in doing well by their female patients.

It would be really interesting to see if there were differences in the decisions that led up to surgery among the different groups. Difficult to collect the data though.

Just read this in the news and thought there would be a thread. Feel really shocked. I believe female med students are still much less likely to become surgeons, which means we will continue to be more likely to be operated on by men. I’ve had 5 surgeries, four by men. When my 17yo DD had a major op last year, three possible surgeons were named, all men.

Do they take more risks because we’re worth less?

Do they understand our bodies less well because they’re taught the default male?

Whatever, it’s very worrying.

Do they understand our bodies less well because they’re taught the default male?
The female surgeons get taught the same as the men.

I've just found the other thread I mentioned - the Daily Mail picked this up about 3 weeks ago

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4425995-Women-more-likely-to-suffer-death-or-complications-if-operated-on-by-a-man

Good point Errol. But leaves the more disturbing reasons as the more likely explanation.

Ah. Apologies. I missed that bit.

Our muscles etc are different, could it be that men are more slapdash but that the male body can recover more easily from that.

1.3 million people is a large study! I was so hoping to discredit it in the hopes it was wrong. so depressing!

My female consultant may have been taught the male default but she definitely allows it in a differentiated way to the female body. I wouldn't blame solely the male of the species for the brain drain though. the thread about firing pregnant women before job training starts could be a good indicator of how unsupported most women feel in the workplace even if other women are in positions of power.

Applies not allows

@ErrolTheDragon

Do they understand our bodies less well because they’re taught the default male? The female surgeons get taught the same as the men.

But female surgeons own a female body. So chances are they've spent more time thinking about it and understanding it.

As someone who has worked in MH and addictions, with a female brain. I'm more likely to read about/interpret/understand female brains. Men go default. And default is male.

That's being really fucking generous to men who are killing female patients.

Male patient gets operated on: outcome does not vary between male and female surgeon
Female surgeon operates: outcome does not vary between male and female patient

M on M = F on M = F on F
So far, so good...

Male surgeon operates on female patient: worse outcomes all around...

Either male surgeon's fat fingers are too rough for the delicate innards of female patient, or the bloody male ego gets in the way, and their misogyny starts shining through their actions in small, but statistically significant ways (they botch the job because they have less respect for the patient)
One way to distinguish between the two hypothesis would be to analyse the data in term of patient size (and surgeon size).

Note: the idea that women's body are just too delicate sounds bollocks. Female bodies are in fact remarkably resilient, hence the higher longevity. Consider for instance survival rates for COVID. It's not an isolated anomaly.

Female bodies aren't more delicate but they are different. Women are more likely to suffer damage to the larynx when intubated for surgery because their laryngeal openings are smaller. Apparently not all anaesthetists automatically take that into account (hope thats changed or changing).

To me it seems obvious that this is like Black women being 5 times more likely to die in labour and childbirth than white women.

Those belonging to groups that are undervalued by the people providing their care (and, by extension, misunderstood / misdiagnosed because they're not worth investing in) are more likely to have adverse health outcomes.