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Feminism: sex and gender

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Feminism: sex and gender

Feminism: chat

Prof. Stock says she is not a radical feminist - what is feminism if not radical?

78 replies

Jamdown123 · 30/12/2021 09:12

Hi All,

I listened to the LBC interview with KS. I the interview she says she is not a radical feminist (when explaining the term TERF). I'm just wondering, is 'radical' feminist the todays' version of 'feminist' 15 years ago? I remember when I was in my early 20s and I would say I was feminist, which I found I had to do very often to declare myself when people started saying stupid sexist things! - people would slightly recoil. Is that what 'radical' feminism is now?

I can't really see what feminism is without radicalism, unless you are saying you want oppression of women to end, but you want it to end within a sexist system and you are happy to just inch along for centuries, as you really don't want to upset any apple carts?!

I'm just confused. Caught some feelings when she said that to be honest - why reject us radicals, Kath???!!!

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unicornpalaver · 30/12/2021 09:18

Hmm, interesting. So is she in favour of porn, prostitution and surrogacy then?

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JustSpeculation · 30/12/2021 09:22

I understand the word "radical" to mean that you believe that the world can, and should, be torn down and reconstructed in accordance with your beliefs. Pulled up by the roots. Stock calls herself an "Aristotelian", which to me means she is concerned about managing what is rather than blowing the doors off.

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RowsOfHolly · 30/12/2021 09:24

Maybe she is a Marxist Feminist, a Liberal Feminist, or other definition?

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Zerogravity · 30/12/2021 09:27

Hmm, interesting. So is she in favour of porn, prostitution and surrogacy then?
Why would you think that?
Radical feminism has a particular meaning it doesn't just mean "not a liberal feminist".

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MonsignorMirth · 30/12/2021 09:28

@JustSpeculation

I understand the word "radical" to mean that you believe that the world can, and should, be torn down and reconstructed in accordance with your beliefs. Pulled up by the roots. Stock calls herself an "Aristotelian", which to me means she is concerned about managing what is rather than blowing the doors off.

This. Many people (me included, not long ago! ) think "radical" means extreme, rather than relating to the "roots" of societal structures.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism

"Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that calls for a radical re-ordering of society in which male supremacy is eliminated in all social and economic contexts, while recognizing that women's experiences are also affected by other social divisions such as in race, class, and sexual orientation."

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MonsignorMirth · 30/12/2021 09:29

Also it's libfems that are ok with porn, prostitution and surrogacy, which is a different "branch" sz

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CeibaTree · 30/12/2021 09:30

Just because she doesn’t define herself with the word radical doesn’t mean she has rejected that branch of feminism OP - why do you think this has this affected you?

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Brusca · 30/12/2021 09:34

Radical in radical feminism means 'root' not 'extreme'. It refers to a specific analysis not how much of a feminist one is.

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Jamdown123 · 30/12/2021 09:54

Hi, why has it affected me? I think I explained that in my post?

I don't fully understand what feminism is if it is not along these lines:
"Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that calls for a radical re-ordering of society in which male supremacy is eliminated in all social and economic contexts, while recognizing that women's experiences are also affected by other social divisions such as in race, class, and sexual orientation."

Now, I think some people who have not thought in any depth about feminism might reject the term radical, but anyone who's given it real consideration must want that, right??!!

Maybe not. I'm at a loss otherwise!

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CeibaTree · 30/12/2021 10:13

I'll have to listen to the interview again. Was she rejecting the labelling of herself as a radical feminist or the actual stance itself?

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JustSpeculation · 30/12/2021 10:19

She said, "I'm not a radical feminist" but didn't explain why not.

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ElectraBlue · 30/12/2021 10:28

Because the term radical is now associated with the type of feminists who believe all men are evil (which is blatantly silly) and who target transgender women (I will not support the demonising of any minority).

I am a life-long feminist but will not call myself radical because of the above...and I am certainly not OK with the exploitation of women in porn/prostitution.

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unicornpalaver · 30/12/2021 10:37

@Zerogravity

Hmm, interesting. So is she in favour of porn, prostitution and surrogacy then?
Why would you think that?

Radical feminism has a particular meaning it doesn't just mean "not a liberal feminist".

I'm genuinely asking. Radical feminists generally explicitly want to dismantle all those things, and so if she is distancing herself from that description, I wasn't sure if she had a different view. No need for the sarky face, thanks.

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JustSpeculation · 30/12/2021 11:23

Hi, OP. Here's your answer:

kathleenstock.com/not-your-feminist/

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Thelnebriati · 30/12/2021 12:43

Radical feminists arent extremists, don't target anyone and don't want to destroy anything. It would be great if people could stop making negative generalisations.

Radical means 'root'. The root of inequality against women is our sex. Inequality is built into the system we live in, because its a hierarchical system.
A fairer system would not only remove some of the more blatant discrimination, it would actively benefit more people; men, women and children. Those benefits usually show up more when people are vulnerable.

You don't always have to dismantle something to rebuild it. Radical feminists have managed to effect change within the legal system without destroying it from within. Ther efforts havent made the legal system unfit for purpose.

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SantaClawsServiette · 30/12/2021 13:01

No, feminism doesn't have to be radical feminism. That doesn't mean she doesn't find any radical feminist thought useful or disagrees with everything it says, but it does mean that she doesn't agree with it's underlying premises about reality.

If she is saying she is an Aristotalian, my guess is that she believes, among other things, that the body and human nature or whatever you want to call it are a fundamental unity, so the idea of reordering society in a way where that doesn't matter is utopian nonsense and likely to lead to bad analysis, just like other forms of utopianism.

I had no idea she considered herself and Aristotalian, I think it makes her more interesting to me rather than less so.

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Jamdown123 · 30/12/2021 15:02

Master's tools and houses come to mind.....

I'll read that link. Thx

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KimikosNightmare · 30/12/2021 15:48

@unicornpalaver

Hmm, interesting. So is she in favour of porn, prostitution and surrogacy then?

How on earth do you come to that conclusion?

Do you think radical feminists are the only group opposed to pornography, prostitution and surrogacy?

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Jamdown123 · 30/12/2021 15:59

So, I've read.

Its a position someone who has not been so oppressed by inequality that their very life is at stake, can have quite easily. I don't know whether this is true of KS.

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unicornpalaver · 30/12/2021 16:12

@KimikosNightmare Calm down. I was asking because I didn't know about her perspective on many things - I haven't read any of her writing really. A lot of more liberal feminists claim to be sex-positive in a way that is pro a sort of feminist ideal of porn, sex work and surrogacy, framing it as a choice issue, so I wondered if KS put herself more in that camp.

@JustSpeculation Thanks for linking that post, it answers most of my questions about KS.

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Metabigot · 30/12/2021 16:34

I'm passionate about some issues but wary of imposing a world view on others. I don't like to think I'm prescribing how others should live their lives . Is that incompatible with radical feminism?

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KimikosNightmare · 30/12/2021 17:10

[quote unicornpalaver]@KimikosNightmare Calm down. I was asking because I didn't know about her perspective on many things - I haven't read any of her writing really. A lot of more liberal feminists claim to be sex-positive in a way that is pro a sort of feminist ideal of porn, sex work and surrogacy, framing it as a choice issue, so I wondered if KS put herself more in that camp.

@JustSpeculation Thanks for linking that post, it answers most of my questions about KS.[/quote]
I haven't read any of her writing either. It was an extraordinary conclusion to come to.

Oh and nice patronising reply- you're really selling radical feminism.

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unicornpalaver · 30/12/2021 17:15

@KimikosNightmare Er, I'm not trying to sell radical feminism, and I hadn't come to any conclusions at all. You seem very strange.

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KimikosNightmare · 30/12/2021 18:15

[quote unicornpalaver]@KimikosNightmare Er, I'm not trying to sell radical feminism, and I hadn't come to any conclusions at all. You seem very strange.[/quote]
Not as strange as the assumption that if one isn't a radical feminist one must be pro porn etc. I'm baffled at the thought process involved in that.

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SantaClawsServiette · 30/12/2021 21:19

@Jamdown123

So, I've read.

Its a position someone who has not been so oppressed by inequality that their very life is at stake, can have quite easily. I don't know whether this is true of KS.

What?

You think she considers herself an Aristotalian rather than a radical feminist because she hasn't been oppressed enough?

I suspect you'll find there are a lot of women who have had a shit time due to their femaleness but aren't radical feminists.

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