Music and women

[Ilovemycatsomuch]

I come from a very musical family. I'm female. I have three brothers a couple of them are good guitarists. All of the brothers are very into their music. My mum (absolutely adores having sons!), and she absolutely loves their music!!

I'm always made to feel like I've got terrible taste in music. Because my mum and brothers will be listening to Brit pop (oasis, blur, etc) and also older pop like Elton John, rem, u2, etc etc

Now me.....dare to suggest a song by a female artist. They look at me with sympathy and shame.

I really believe that music is the most horribly misogynistic area of life.

Female artists are LAUGHED at. Pop music they say.

It doesn't matter how amazing Madonna was.

It doesn't matter how amazing En Vouge were.

It doesn't matter how phenomenal Taylor Swift is....

but do you think a woman would be permitted to shamble on stage

Um, are you familiar with Amy Winehouse?

Yes. She had a very specific look. Beehive, winged eyeliner, rock chick clothes, very very slim qnd absolutely nothing like Ed Sheeran. More "went to a cool druggie party and never went to bed" than "slightly chubby boy next door who just rolled out of bed".

Yes. She had a very specific look. Beehive, winged eyeliner, rock chick clothes, very very slim qnd absolutely nothing like Ed Sheeran. More "went to a cool druggie party and never went to bed" than "slightly chubby boy next door who just rolled out of bed".

I never said she was anything like Ed Sheeran. I was making the point that women can indeed get away with being a shambles on stage. I’ve never heard of Ed Sheeran hitting a crack pipe right before going onstage.

Oh women can look a mess, as long as they are a hot mess and remain fuckable. Had she lived, I wonder if she would have been allowed to age and keep making music like the Rolling Stones.

I cant bear music snobs. It's one of my pet peeves.

You like Madonna, the 'correct' music lovers tell you you're wrong for liking her, she's shit, she can't sing etc.,

But all the bands they like are amazing and you just don't appreciate their musicality.

It's patronising, condescending bollocks.

People should be allowed to enjoy what they like, without being sneered at and ridiculed.

It's sad and pathetic.

I'm not a great fan if Elton or Ed ( and actively dislike their combined Christmas effort), but both of them are stronger musically than En Vogue (one good album),Madonna (culturally significant but never a strong singer) or Taylor Swift (cracking songwriter but lightweight so far).
It may be the genre rather than the womanhood of the artists you rate that your musical family don't consider good enough.
Your opinion is valid for you. The music that speaks to you is of merit for that reason. When it comes to Pop, most if us are drawn to either music that moves us or lyrics we relate to.
Don't take it to heart. You have different taste to some if your family in some pop music. Discussions and differences are what makes good conversation!

@powershowerforanhour

but do you think a woman would be permitted to shamble on stage

Um, are you familiar with Amy Winehouse?

Yes. She had a very specific look. Beehive, winged eyeliner, rock chick clothes, very very slim qnd absolutely nothing like Ed Sheeran. More "went to a cool druggie party and never went to bed" than "slightly chubby boy next door who just rolled out of bed".

Sorry to be po-faced, this comment about AW and description of her 'look', given her addiction issues. And that they're well known mainly due to the tabloids hounding her, publishing every picture they could of her drunk, drugged, upset, angry. Which is bad enough anyway, but considering they knew she was in a really bad way and did it anyway.

Being slim? She was more than a bit slim. And was not fit and healthy slim. But unwell. Severe alcohol addiction and drug addiction both often result in low weight because if it's everyday/ fairly large amounts then it's common not to eat much.

This part about her 'look'-

'went to a cool druggie party and never went to bed"'

It wasn't a 'look' it was her life. It was not cool. She died at 27 of alcohol poisoning, 3 empty bottles of vodka were found in her room. She was not drinking with friends but on her own, her bouncer obviously had part of job to check on her periodically, and he was the one who found her dead.

Sorry but felt needed to say that, I found the post upsetting.

It’s no surprise when radio airplay is so skewed towards male bands and artists and that when it comes to indie music stations like Absolute play 99% male bands/artists. However Britpop did have bands with one or more we women in, Elastica, Echobelly, Skunk Anansie, Sleeper, Republica, Fluffy, Kenicke, even Hole (ok, they were grunge) and Pulp, Ash and Suede all had female members at some point, plus there were singers like PJ Harvey and Beth Orton of that era. Currently I think the Anchoress’s new album in a work of genius. Your mum as some serious internalised misogyny if she can’t find a single female musician she respects going back in the history of rock/pop.

Sinister do you remember the hooha when xfm (which launched in my area in London in about '90 and was brilliant), and definitely aimed at indie/ alternative people.

Became radio X a few years ago and announced...

'Radio X is ‘the first truly male-focused, fully national music and entertainment brand for 25-44 year olds’.

'“I’m proud that Global is launching Radio X today and that we’re able to bring a completely new national music and entertainment property for 25-44 year old men to the market. Radio X will be a one of its kind radio station and the first time the commercial sector has catered for this hard to reach group.'

The change included announcing big name presenters- Chris moyles, Vernon Kaye and Johnny Vaughan.

As a woman who started listening from the moment it came in air ( with friends at one of our houses (parents houses obv!).

And we loved it. And I had it in car and listened on and off all those years.

This announcement felt like s massive fuck you to the female listeners. It was in some news articles, women complaining saying fucks sake.

And also who knew that males that age group had nothing on the radio that catered to them? In this genre (or any?).

The other BIG indication of what they actually meant was the presenters. Hmm. Shouted a particular type of 'male focus' to me and well everyone.
Laddy blokey 'banter' of the type that to me (and many others) back then could be seen in any pub, many workplaces etc and was, well, it was about posturing, being loud, swaggering about, chat about things like beer, women, football and not much else. I mean that's a generalisation and a very brief summary but many will know what I mean!

Loads of women were utterly totally fucked off and angry.

I've not listened to it since. Petty and pointless I know but no way tuning in!

Cheesemmmm I went to the protest outside Capital Radio when it took over Xmas and totally ruined a wonderful station. It went from being funny and eclectic to corporate and dull. A lot of people were really unhappy, there was letters in NME about it. Around the same time GLR was ruined too. Interestingly Rickie Gervais wrote The Office partly inspired by working at Xfm when the corporate take over and his eventual sacking. The indie scene in the early 90’s was much more inclusive of women, I think a big part of that was due to the rrriot girls movement in the USA, but once Britpop became a thing people with too much money and influence moved in and ruined it all, bands, radio stations and put women back in their place with lad culture.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/2021/sep/16/gender-disparity-in-uk-radio-report-shows-minor-improvements-on-2020

There is an interesting report on how disproportionately feature high male artists and bands getting airplay over women. It’s truly shocking, this is not an even playing field, so it’s not surprising people like the OPs mother only think men make good music if that is all they hear. How the hell this is going to leave any female artist capable of being considered for the Brits new “artist of the year award” I do not know.

I’m sorry OP but En Vogue? Sounds more like a difference in music taste than mysogny. The music you say your family likes is more rocky/guitar based and that’s probably it.

My preference is Rock and it is male dominated however I listen to lots of different types of music which includes female singers but not Madonna, En Vogue or Adele.

Hannah Reid from London Grammar has one of THE best voices imo. I listen to a lot of Fleetwood Mac (Stevie Nicks is the front woman!) then we have Florence & the Machine, Haim, Bat for Lashes, Marina & the Diamonds… if I looked at my playlists I’d find lots more.

Attitudes are starting to change.

17 year old ds (a keys player) loves Elton John & Taylor Swift, Toto (specifically Steve Porcaro) & Carole King.

Is there a female equivalent of Jacob Collier?

"Sorry but felt needed to say that, I found the post upsetting."

I'm sorry Cheese, I phrased my post badly and I didn't mean to be nasty and sneery. What I mean is that I expect everyone making money off her music didn't mind the underweight and out of it look as it fitted the brand. Sort of a bit like if a female performer feels insecure/ mentally in a bad place and expresses it by wearing very little and snogging other gorgeous women in public even if not lesbian/bi (say), it's all tickety boo. If a woman shaves her head (like young Sinead O'Connor) mmm a bit less ok...still beautiful but "mental", if a woman shaves her head and puts on a bit of weight like older Sinead or Britney..... Noooo, she's not allowed to be mental like that and becomes a laughing stock.

Also, I can't really think of any scruffy-normal big mainstream female acts. Like not "beautiful mental shambles" but just "this is what I wear when I'm strumming a few chords on my kitchen sofa on a Tuesday morning after I've been down to the shop for milk and the paper and I'm going to wear it onstage cos it's comfy and it's all about the music".

@powershowerforanhour

Also, I can't really think of any scruffy-normal big mainstream female acts. Like not "beautiful mental shambles" but just "this is what I wear when I'm strumming a few chords on my kitchen sofa on a Tuesday morning after I've been down to the shop for milk and the paper and I'm going to wear it onstage cos it's comfy and it's all about the music".

But to be fair Ed Sheeran is known as the boy next door type. He's no 'troubled and compelling' Jeff Buckley/Kurt Cobain/Axl Rose etc.

@powershowerforanhour

"Sorry but felt needed to say that, I found the post upsetting."

I'm sorry Cheese, I phrased my post badly and I didn't mean to be nasty and sneery. What I mean is that I expect everyone making money off her music didn't mind the underweight and out of it look as it fitted the brand. Sort of a bit like if a female performer feels insecure/ mentally in a bad place and expresses it by wearing very little and snogging other gorgeous women in public even if not lesbian/bi (say), it's all tickety boo. If a woman shaves her head (like young Sinead O'Connor) mmm a bit less ok...still beautiful but "mental", if a woman shaves her head and puts on a bit of weight like older Sinead or Britney..... Noooo, she's not allowed to be mental like that and becomes a laughing stock.

Thank you - that makes sense. Also thank you for doing that rather than going on the defensive, unusual on MN sadly!

Trying to remember, just checked in fact. I'm pretty sure that with Amy her success came due to her huge talent, singing and writing, and that it was accessible to wide audience even though rooted in jazz etc, so something v different to usual but still with potentially wide appeal.

She was signed via the long old fashioned process of gigging loads and eventually someone from record industry came across her.

Yes the fact she was young, slender, presented in a way that was a take on glam from a previous era with her own spin I'm sure helped.

I have read lots about her constant no shows, turning up drunk. She must have been s nightmare to work with as you never knew whether she would be there/ in a fit state to work properly.

I think her talent made her worth persisting with. And while I agree that music companies often treat their musicians appalling esp the clothes/ body stuff with women. In this case I'm fairly sure they would not have encouraged her addictions/ lifestyle as they cost time and money.

Sorry to go on. She was from my neck of the woods. Went to a school v near me for a bit. I know loads of people who knew her in passing etc. And Camden as well was my stamping ground for years. I know it's silly but it's very local round here and she was local iyswim.

Her statue in Camden makes me feel emotional I think partly because she was so tiny, even shorter than me. Hardly anything to her then that voice.

Dunno it's funny how some stars you feel that sort of way about when never knew them.

I'll shut up now about her, thanks again for your reply :)

Look at loads of stars from my era and women definitely but men as well would surely not be of interest to recording execs!

Due to how they looked.

Of course it was different generally. The great songs/ artists / songs that somehow kept on getting played are the ones who get played.

So much shit though! I mean. Keith Harris and Orville?! Massive hit. Black lace two middle aged blokes looked and acted like from pretty crap mobile disco in pub. And with some really iffy songs (gangbang! Not played on TOTP!). Clive dunn grandad. The birdie song. And so much more...!
Would the flying pickets be seen as a go-er? Renee and Renata?

And of course on the flipside plenty of eccentric and / or with looks or styles that were not seen as attractive/ or even at all usual, who were great in a variety of ways, got success.

Eg Steve strange, Marilyn, Alison moyet (though even then her size was commented on loads insultingly), Kate Bush (her eccentricity was commented on loads and piss taken)... (Women who don't fit male preferences seem to freak them out a bit for sure).

A poster commented earlier that it's way better for women musicians now looking back I'm just not convinced.

You need to quote some country and folk musicians to your family, maybe EmmyLou Harris, Alison Kraus, The Chicks, Mary Chapin Carpenter and Nanci Griffith to get started with.

I'm actually forgetting two of my own favourites in that list, Trisha Yearwood and Kacey Musgrave. And if you want a great non country singer Lana del Rey.

Having said that the way music is consumed is so so different.

Back then regardless of genre, if a song got to s certain level of popularity it would be on radio (not many stations unless tuned into pirate then v specialised 1 genre).
TOTP played whatever was in charts. Pop, metal, alternative, punk, hip hop, songs defying a genre label, electronic, whatever. Whole top 40 a must listen every Sunday (all 3 hours!). So those interested which was loads as fuck all else to do, were exposed to loads of different types of music.

Now anyone can push music out there. And there's so so much. It's become really fragmented. The genres have become pretty independent of each other, less exposure to a wide range, much more pick your one and delve into that.

Good or bad, just different really. Totally different.

Not sure it's easy to compare really!

The pressure on women when getting more famous to look certain ways is worse than ever though I would say. The hyper sexualisation.

For OP I think don't bother ignore them.

And if they angle for an argument try hardest not to engage.

They sound like bog standard blokey sexist to me, through and through.

No interest in music generally just a worship of oasis and a couple of similar blokey bands is just so two a penny and dull.

Also, I can't really think of any scruffy-normal big mainstream female acts

Billie Eilish?
Avril Lavigne?

Thing is, the "look" of musical artists goes part and parcel with the music, for pop acts.
Look back at the Beatles and similar from early 60s and they all wore suits, no question.
Would a band have been signed if they were scruffy? No way!
Yet a few years later, their hippy look led to hundreds of bands with long hair, tie dye, scruffy look.
As previously said, there were plenty of female artists in the 90s with the baggy style. It's gone out now, mostly. Fashions for men and women don't always overlap either.
I can't currently think of any female artists with the plain jeans and t shirt look, like Ed Sheeran, but there probably are some.

She is not well known as a solo artist but the wonderful Gail Ann Dorsey is very well known as a bassist from her 2 decades of playing with Bowie, in the studio and on tour. She has a hell of a voice too. Her first professional bass work was with Boy George in 1984. Since then she has played with Boy George, Charlie Watts, Tears for Fears, and Gang of Four. She did long term work with Lenny Kravitz too - he called her "The Superior Female Energy" in the band.

Gail Ann Dorsey here performing/singing 'Under Pressure' with Bowie at the GQ Awards 1997

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