Music and women

[Ilovemycatsomuch]

I come from a very musical family. I'm female. I have three brothers a couple of them are good guitarists. All of the brothers are very into their music. My mum (absolutely adores having sons!), and she absolutely loves their music!!

I'm always made to feel like I've got terrible taste in music. Because my mum and brothers will be listening to Brit pop (oasis, blur, etc) and also older pop like Elton John, rem, u2, etc etc

Now me.....dare to suggest a song by a female artist. They look at me with sympathy and shame.

I really believe that music is the most horribly misogynistic area of life.

Female artists are LAUGHED at. Pop music they say.

It doesn't matter how amazing Madonna was.

It doesn't matter how amazing En Vouge were.

It doesn't matter how phenomenal Taylor Swift is....

@Snoozer11

Although I think sexism is reflected in the "celebrity" side of female musicians - Madonna, Taylor Swift, Little Mix, Amy Winehouse, Charlotte Church etc. But I don't think musical talent plays a role.

I think even 'serious' female artists are generally expected to be attractive whilst it doesn't really matter so much with men. But it's interesting that female artists are almost always singers and rarely composers/producers.

@LoveGrooveDanceParty

I’m going to be honest and say…. out of the absolute plethora of phenomenal female musicians to identify, you land on Madonna, Taylor Swift and … En Vogue….?

My thoughts too. There loads of fabulous female musicians in all genres but given the sweeping generalisations I can't be bothered giving examples.

@Snoozer11

Ed Sheeran also receives some criticism (though I would argue not enough).

😭😭😭🥳 Truer words were never written babes!

Mabel's comment about women being moulded whereas men are allowed to choose their own direction is interested. I know Ed Sheeran's look is probably a carefully crafted part of his "brand" now but do you think a woman would be permitted to shamble on stage in a scruffy, shapeless T shirt and pick up a guitar?

but do you think a woman would be permitted to shamble on stage in a scruffy, shapeless T shirt and pick up a guitar?

Maybe not right now, but yes. Plenty of indie/grunge artists in the past. Fashions come and fashions go.

@deydododatdodontdeydo

but do you think a woman would be permitted to shamble on stage in a scruffy, shapeless T shirt and pick up a guitar?

Maybe not right now, but yes. Plenty of indie/grunge artists in the past. Fashions come and fashions go.

Courtney Barnett

I agree with powershowerforanhour. Ed Sheeran is mainstream and very widely known. It's not the same to give examples of grunge/indie women musicians who dress in a similar way.

It is quite hard to make generalisations across the music industry as there are obviously differences between genres but earlier this week all the focus was on Leigh Anne Pinnock's near wardrobe malfunction:

metro.co.uk/2021/12/01/boxing-day-leigh-anne-pinnock-skilfully-avoids-wardrobe-malfunction-15694613/

Which male singers are under pressure to dress like this?

I am absolutely not making any negative comments about the dress, just noting that the dress codes are different for men and women mainstream pop musicians.

This seems surely more to go with people taking the piss out of commercial pop music generally than misogyny, to me. There’s no shortage of derision towards Ed Sheeran or Justin Bieber, or respect for substantial historical female figures like Aretha Franklin or Carole King.

How the industry and public perception operate vis a vis male and female singers, singer-songwriters and “stars” seems pretty equal to me. What’s more remarkable is the almost COMPLETE lack of female instrumentalists in ordinary supporting roles - as band members, session musicians etc.

This seems to be the case in pretty much every vaguely “popular style” of music - pop, rock, even jazz to a large extent. It used to be so in classical music too, and still is in some countries, but not at all in the UK any more.

Why? I don’t know.

@EightWheelGirl

Doesn’t Taylor Swift have a co writer on a lot of her songs?

You do know there was a whole thread recently comparing her to Shakespeare

but do you think a woman would be permitted to shamble on stage

Um, are you familiar with Amy Winehouse?

I like the Norwegian artist Sigrid; she goes on stage in jeans at times.
She's very talented.

Ignoring the stuff about musical tastes as not really the point.

'Because my mum and brothers will be listening to Brit pop (oasis, blur, etc) and also older pop like Elton John, rem, u2, etc etc'

I was a teen when 'alternative' was a massive scene for teens. Went to indie, rock, goth, alternative/indie rock etc from 16 for years. Prodigy came on scene incredible crossed so many musical tribes. Remember when teen spirit was released bloody hell it was just phenomal in clubs everyone went bonkers!

So I think my credentials on the scene are fairly solid. Why I posted this in sec...

Back then the 'casual' scene was totally separate. Alternative scene generally we were.. well obv less mainstream in dress but also how we behaved to each other, plenty sensitive types.
It was fun friendly. The... Obvious sexual objectification, predatory behaviour, really handsy stuff was way less.
Yes drink drugs pulling it was just... different.

Then oasis came along. Songs some good first album was fairly popular with us but not quite... The same somehow.

Next thing. OUR clubs started getting different sorts of people. Particularly different sorts of men.

They wore silly hats and certain types of parkas. They traveled in packs. They were loud and very drunk. They gave off a vibe that suggested. Could become aggressive. They swaggered and had zero awareness of those around on dancefloor. Their space, to avoid crashing into them etc.

We did not like it. When oasis played they had dancefloor to selves. They were not welcome at all. And slowly that scene morphed into something mainstream, complete with hammered blokey men.

And they were leery and very sexist.

They were absolutely NOT indie or indie rock. They THOUGHT they were.

Any exceptions prove the rule.

The real deal people thought they were arseholes. (Sorry).

That's the men in your family. Sorry.

(IMO, and of course some lovely but it's v laddy).

They seem to have forgotten all the women who were massive on that scene though. And if they think they're indie well the pixies/breeders, hole, sonic youth, I could go on and on.

So they don't know the essential bands of the scene they claim to be in.

And the oasis type era there was plenty women eg

Garbage
Elastica
Echobelly
Sleeper

Off the top of my head.

So they aren't actually britpop devotees either.

Conclusion. Sorry OP. Just sexist lad types is bottom line.

Does that sound fair?

I would take the angle.

Oh I met a massive britpop fan other day. He was chatting about it and asked what I think of bands called sleeper and Elastica. Said they were favourites of his and massive.

What do you think of them?

Assuming blank faces... If so you say oh he said they were super famous britpop bands thought you would Def know them.

Then they will get defensive and call them crap or something. And you can smile to yourself safe in the knowledge they are wannabe gobshites same as millions of other bogstandard blokes.

Dunno if that helps!

Start a post asking for recommendations for female artists and their best songs or something @Ilovemycatsomuch.

Let's all expand the number of women we listen to.

I can't tell from your description if your family's thing is sexism, nostalgia or if they're just the sort of people who only listen to a few artists and don't expand their repertoire.

There's a v recent thread on chat or the other feminism one gender. With women music recs.

@CheeseMmmm

There's a v recent thread on chat or the other feminism one gender. With women music recs.

Thank you. I'll have a look.

@TarasCrazyTiara

If you think Taylor Swift is wonderful over Elton John then I get their reaction.

I suppose you'd rather listen to 'an indie record that's sooo much cooler than mine'. To quote Taylor. Taylor Swift is incredibly talented. I saw her live by accident and at her age, stadium gig... seriously amazing. And I've seen about a billion live acts.

Elton can't actually, you know, sing.

I'm so proud of DD. 10 years old. I got her a music app. All female artists and bands so far.

It's bad in pop. It's even worse in Western Art (also known as 'classical') music.

From four centuries' worth of music, most people couldn't name three female composers. Even people who regularly go to Western Art music concerts couldn't. Out of four hundred years of writing music.

Ok so I’m a huge indie/britpop fan but there’s an absolutely massive plethora of new music coming through at the moment, full of women! Just give 6music a whirl for the day and you’ll hear what I mean.

Your family are clearly odd and stuck in their own musical comfort zone. They’ll grow up one day. But some of the bands they like are significant and brilliant.

Sure, the music industry is dominated by male artists, but things are slowly changing across all the genres. Historically there’s not much you can do, but moving forward things are changing. The industry isn’t what it was 20+ years ago mainly due to the way we listen to music. There’s just so much coming through.

Angry I'm not sure.

I read/ saw a thing about how TV progs esp skew music past, and I'm sure magazines news articles etc do the same. This I would imagine happens in society esp men and it all repeats and enforces together with big impact.

The thing I saw pointed out that the BBC arts features, other progs generally celebrate male artists and bands from previous music generations. Also that male artists and bands quite often get described as geniuses, groundbreaking, changing a whole scene etc.

I thought oh, not noticed that. And then started to notice it. I can't remember seeing more than a couple bands/artists featured, (though obv don't watch all), on the in depth band / musician from 50s - up to about 80s usually the era.

It's you know.
Beatles, stones, queen, iron maiden, kinks, oasis, nirvava, etc etc.

I've watched a few as some interest me. Also that thing I read was pretty much right.

Interviews were with band members if still about, producers, collaborators, sound people, session musicians etc etc loads of types people. Male male male. Lauding the genius/originality/brand new sound etc of.. men.

Women sometimes interviewed usually had sung with and generally fairly famous not in background.

Once prompted to notice I was. Well fuck. These things are so standard generally goes unnoticed. Men tend to remember, idolise, I suspect predominantly listen to male artists. And so history even recentish for music becomes male.

The women are... Forgotten in general public awareness.
Hugely famous remembered often (usually?) in a rather lightweight way with individual personal life often included, things that were flops/ went wrong. Dress style if 'sexy'/revealing. A sort of... Whatever means nothing exceptional, got lucky, got fame not because music.

Generally it's eg spice girls, Debbie Harry (not blondie even though that's actually what about), Madonna, dunno. Not so many at all.

Like the female britpop categorised artists. And some were just massive.

Where are they? Just oasis, stone roses, inspiral carpets really. Women gone mainly forgotten.

This is the picture back through the decades.

The definite difference now is the mainstreaming of very very misogynist lyrics, the teeniness of many female outfits, the grooming level of the women, the sex related content of videos and lyrics etc etc.

Of course plenty women not, but still. It's more extreme than ever.