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Feminism: chat

Murder probe launched after girl, 12, dies in Liverpool

71 replies

PronounssheRa · 26/11/2021 09:32

I wasn't sure where to post this. A 12 year old girl has died after an altercation with a group of teen boys. 4 teen males arrested on suspicion of murder.

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/murder-probe-launched-after-girl-22281897

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JayAlfredPrufrock · 26/11/2021 21:06

Just discussing this with my DD who lives in Liverpool. She walks to work at 7.30 am and says there are gangs of lads hanging around eating Maccies at that time. I always thought you’d be safe early in a morning.

And what’s changed? I’ve always been a gobby cow and have got into arguments many times over the years. But never been stabbed.

And the parking war murders.

I think there’s been a seismic change.

Annalouisa · 26/11/2021 22:22

I'm just reading the UK government's "Home Office Policy paper on Tackling violence against women and girls strategy". Check out this foreword by Rt Hon Priti Patel MP, Home Secretary:

"While this strategy focuses on women and girls, there is much more we all can do to support men and boys across a number of areas, including their safety."

FFS. Basically 'All Lives Matter' in the foreword to a policy paper on violence against women.

Annalouisa · 26/11/2021 23:16

An interesting passage from the home office report:

"Sometimes we see men who are violent who started off with violence against a sex worker, because that’s seen as less serious, or easier."

Upskirting is an offence, and now there's talk of a tougher stance on indecent exposure, but what about the elephant in the room - prostitution and pornography (which incidentally is ancient Greek for 'the portrayal of prostitutes')?

There's some evidence that the use of porn went up during lockdown, with some researchers calling it a 'porndemic'. And now we're out of lockdown and these de-sensitised porn watchers are out there...

Speaking of, the police officer scum who kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard for his own personal pleasure and then disposed of her body like a piece of rubbish was “attracted to brutal sexual pornography”, according to court docs.

If hitting and hurting women is illegal, why is it okay to pay to watch it?

Thought experiment: Racism is illegal. Would it be okay to have an online channel where white people pay to see ethnic minorities insulted and degraded? If they get paid for it, that makes it okay, right? And I'm sure watching hours of racist slurs won't affect my behaviour in real life at all. Confused sarcasm alert

AnyFucker · 26/11/2021 23:39

Thought experiment: Racism is illegal. Would it be okay to have an online channel where white people pay to see ethnic minorities insulted and degraded? If they get paid for it, that makes it okay, right? And I'm sure watching hours of racist slurs won't affect my behaviour in real life at all

Indeed

EightWheelGirl · 27/11/2021 01:18

Thing is, most of the discussions you read on this are going on assumptions. Most surveys show that around 50% of women like rough sex nowadays and that a lot of the people who watch the most violent porn are actually females who identify as subs.

Pornhub let a Google data scientist analyse their data and they found that most of the worst stuff was being watched by women. They used Google Analytics which has been shown to be accurate in determining the sex of users as it tracks browsing history across other websites etc. Was a thread on it ages ago where it was all explained, will try and dig it out.

EightWheelGirl · 27/11/2021 01:24

Why Are So Many Women Searching for Ultra-Violent Porn?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/bm9w7v/why-are-so-many-women-searching-for-ultra-violent-porn

PaleGreenGhost · 27/11/2021 10:27

@AnyFucker

Thought experiment: Racism is illegal. Would it be okay to have an online channel where white people pay to see ethnic minorities insulted and degraded? If they get paid for it, that makes it okay, right? And I'm sure watching hours of racist slurs won't affect my behaviour in real life at all

Indeed

This
PaleGreenGhost · 27/11/2021 10:33

@EightWheelGirl

Thing is, most of the discussions you read on this are going on assumptions. Most surveys show that around 50% of women like rough sex nowadays and that a lot of the people who watch the most violent porn are actually females who identify as subs.

Pornhub let a Google data scientist analyse their data and they found that most of the worst stuff was being watched by women. They used Google Analytics which has been shown to be accurate in determining the sex of users as it tracks browsing history across other websites etc. Was a thread on it ages ago where it was all explained, will try and dig it out.

That is interesting.

As a damaged (by males) teen I did a lot of stuff to try and assimilate with males. It was a weird mix of trying to make men like me (because I thought they hurt me due to something inherently unlikeable about myself) and trying to become more like men (as self protection, because men were tougher, harder to hurt).

I think it is really difficult to analyse heterosexual women's desires when we are attracted to the very people that cause us so much harm

Waitwhat23 · 27/11/2021 10:33

[quote EightWheelGirl]Why Are So Many Women Searching for Ultra-Violent Porn?

www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/bm9w7v/why-are-so-many-women-searching-for-ultra-violent-porn[/quote]
Having just read your link, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the second half of the article which goes into the issue in more detail -

'So if women who fantasise about rape or coercive sex are actually some of the most liberated out there, is it the same story for women who watch violent porn? It's not that clear-cut. There has been very little research into the latter, but a study from 2011 found the women most likely to watch porn – especially the most extreme kinds – were those who had suffered sexual assaults and psychological violence at the hands of their families.

Dr Raj Persaud, a British consultant psychiatrist, broadcaster and author, said that unlike the women in the rape fantasy study, we don't know the situation of the women searching for violent porn.

"I think it's probably the case that women who've been abused have ended up with a disturbed view of sex," he told me. "People who've suffered former psychological trauma or abuse are often in abusive relationships – they repeat the cycle. We don't know whether the people doing those searches are in an abusive relationship, and are doing the searches because they are being coerced into doing so.

"There are a lot of unknowns, and without speaking to the women who are searching for this porn, we can't know whether they have been abused. What the search data shows is there's a secret side to people's lives, which psychologists can have difficulty accessing."

"We don't know if they're looking out of interest, or doing it because that's what their boyfriends or hook-ups want, or if they're actually masturbating to it."

Dr Gail Dines, professor of sociology and women's studies at Wheelock College, Boston, and a prominent anti-porn campaigner, told me: "Until we know how long [the women are] staying on the porn sites, and have actual empirical evidence about what they are doing while on the sites, we don't know if they're looking out of interest, or doing it because that's what their boyfriends or hook-ups want, or if they're actually masturbating to it."

However, says Dr Dines, one thing's for sure: "If these women [who watch violent porn] have been abused, [they] are actually digging the trauma further into the firing and wiring of [their] neurones, driving it further into their limbic systems, and porn delivers a massive hit to the limbic system because you're watching someone going through the same trauma you did."

So while women who fantasise about violent or coercive sex are apparently often sexually-liberated and have high self-esteem, it's as yet unknown if the same can be said about women who search for violent porn. The data shows us women are searching for this stuff, but until someone commissions a big old study around the topic, we'll never truly know why.'

EightWheelGirl · 27/11/2021 11:14

I was going to post the whole thing but was a bit long. It echoes to me the fact that sex abusers have often been abused (may have been paedophiles, can't remember). Not in any way trying to lay the blame on women for watching it but it indicates that the situation isn't what one would assume which is that its almost solely men watching it, even if the abuse from men may be a driving factor.

That said, I'm not sure this niche porn is a big factor in the more widespread issue of porn becoming more violent - choking, hairpulling, etc.

EightWheelGirl · 27/11/2021 11:18

I think drill music etc has a bigger effect on the knife crime situation. Some of the documentaries are pretty scary. Kids saying they don't care if they go down for murder etc because they have mates inside etc. A large part of drill seems to be beefing with other gangs pretty much just for reputation. This has always been a thing but seems more emphasised now as opposed to just being turf wars about drugs etc.

Annalouisa · 27/11/2021 13:05

@EightWheelGirl, I think we all agree that the link you posted doesn't support your claim that "most surveys show that around 50% of women like rough sex nowadays and that a lot of the people who watch the most violent porn are actually females who identify as subs."

Honestly, I think statements like that are dangerous as they support that whole narrative of "whoops, I strangled my tinder date to death, but really, she wanted it". I googled that statement about 50% of women wanting rough sex and the only thing I found some lads mag article on that topic. So let's not go there - it's complicated (what's rough sex, who did the survey etc.) and the link you posted wasn't clearcut on this issue.

The most disturbing thing in that article, as someone else pointed out, is that the women most likely to watch violent porn are women who have been subjected to rape and possibly incest. Effectively, abusive sex may be "normalised" for them, or they might be watching it trying to process their own experiences.

Then bear in mind that globally, 736 million women—almost one in three—have been subjected to intimate partner violence or non-partner sexual violence. Not sure if all of these millions of women have access to pornhub though...

And thanks for getting me hooked on drill music - like it! Can't really understand the lyrics, but that might be a blessing.

PaleGreenGhost · 27/11/2021 14:19

Sexualised behaviour in children is a potential warning sign that that the child has been sexually abused.

That same fact could be worded very differently in order to support paedophilia.

We can't, in a patriarchy and at a time where rape is practically legal, treat men's and women's answers to questions on sex and violence the same. It is far, far more complicated.

PaleGreenGhost · 27/11/2021 14:24

And look at this intriguing article (apologies its from the Independent)
www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/life-style/cardi-b-cold-geordie-girls-b1950729.html%3famp

Women who engaged in self objectification felt the cold less. Self objectification is something a patriarchal society demands of women. Is it a leap to think if women who do this a lot feel the cold less, they might also be less in touch with other internal feelings of discomfort?

EightWheelGirl · 27/11/2021 14:41

@EightWheelGirl, I think we all agree that the link you posted doesn't support your claim that "most surveys show that around 50% of women like rough sex nowadays and that a lot of the people who watch the most violent porn are actually females who identify as subs."

That wasn't in relation to that particular study. I read another one somewhere else about a couple years back.

EightWheelGirl · 27/11/2021 14:53

Tried to find the original article but couldn't. However, are plenty of surveys online showing it to be popular with going women. Whether peer pressure or the particular demographics interviewed (e.g. dating websites) influence this I'm not sure, but it certainly doesn't seem uncommon.

But the truth is, many women (as many as 57 percent, according to a University of North Texas study) are turned on by the idea of forceful sex, as un-PC as it might be.

www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/a31879/rough-sex-november-2014/

After polling more than 400,000 OkCupid members, the dating website found that 62 percent of women enjoy rough sex.

www.menshealth.com/sex-women/a19545710/best-kinky-sex-for-women/

About 80% of those with a current sexual or romantic partner engaged in rough sex with them and most who engaged it liked it. The most common behaviors participants considered to be rough sex were choking, hair pulling, and spanking.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33564979/

EightWheelGirl · 27/11/2021 14:54

'Young women' not 'going women'.

Thelnebriati · 27/11/2021 15:34

Start another thread if you want to talk about how women enjoy rough sex, this thread is about the murder of a 12 year old girl.

Annalouisa · 27/11/2021 15:46

So we don't know seem to know anything about the four boys/suspects yet, but I saw this today on Twitter about the victim, Ava:

Murder probe launched after girl, 12, dies in Liverpool
MichelleScarn · 27/11/2021 20:41

@Thelnebriati

Start another thread if you want to talk about how women enjoy rough sex, this thread is about the murder of a 12 year old girl.
Absolutely agree, there's threads evolving appropriately and that is not that.
MrsBobDylan · 28/11/2021 21:43

@EightWheelGirl

Thing is, most of the discussions you read on this are going on assumptions. Most surveys show that around 50% of women like rough sex nowadays and that a lot of the people who watch the most violent porn are actually females who identify as subs.

Pornhub let a Google data scientist analyse their data and they found that most of the worst stuff was being watched by women. They used Google Analytics which has been shown to be accurate in determining the sex of users as it tracks browsing history across other websites etc. Was a thread on it ages ago where it was all explained, will try and dig it out.

This is a thread about a murdered child. Not the place for this hackneyed bullshit.

Also, Pornhub and a Google scientist?

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Pallisers · 28/11/2021 22:58

@Thelnebriati

Start another thread if you want to talk about how women enjoy rough sex, this thread is about the murder of a 12 year old girl.
Thank you.
PronounssheRa · 29/11/2021 07:05

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-59456938

14 year old boy charged with Avas murder

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Cuck00soup · 29/11/2021 11:06

What a heartless, pointless crime.

Poor Ava and her family.

PronounssheRa · 24/05/2022 16:05

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-61554010

14 year old boy found guilty of Avas murder

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