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Feminism: chat

Channel 4, Rape 'Who's on trial'

113 replies

MrMrsJones · 08/11/2021 21:19

Follows Avon and Somerset police after 2yrs investigations into 4 serious sexual crime investigations

OP posts:
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 14/11/2021 13:19

Thank you, ScrollingLeaves. Very much appreciate your posts on this thread too.

MaryStuart · 14/11/2021 13:37

Great post @TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Wheresmywoolyjumpers · 14/11/2021 14:30

I wonder if juries on rape cases should have to do a training on rape myths before they sit? I can imagine the defence would object, but in other types of cases juries have to learn a lot about the background to the case (fraud for example).

Felix125 · 16/11/2021 11:06

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark
I do see the prevalence of sexual crimes against women perpetrated by men and i am trying to discuss how we can achieve a higher conviction rate for such crimes.

Its interesting that sexual crimes against men don't seem to get a higher prevalence in the debate. No men were invited to the debate on the TV for example. I have no knowledge of any support groups or safe hostels for men in our area who are victims of domestic abuse or sexual crimes. And the lack of reporting by men for such things is similar to the points raised on here - they won't be believed, they are embarrassed, lack of support etc etc.

I don't think this is a patriarchal thing - I think it shows that they are evil people in society and nasty/horrible things can happen to the victims of these people. Male sex offenders have to be protected in jails from other male inmates and again when they get released into society. If the patriarchy is so prevalent we wouldn't have to do this.

I think it was Jung that also said - '...if you can't establish a motivation, look at the outcome and infer the motivation from it...'
If a suspect has raped a victim - then perhaps that was what the suspect wanted to do - it wasn't driven by any societal weighted oppression.

But I think that's another argument for another thread.

From a police point of view, we start by total belief in what the victim is telling us. So during this we take the initial account, early evidence samples, seize clothing, establish a scene, CCTV, identify a suspect, medical examination, safeguarding the victim, support services where applicable etc etc.

As the investigation goes on, we need to establish the facts based on what we have obtained from the victim, the scene, witnesses and the defence statement from the suspect - an any other evidence available. From this and onto the CPS it doesn't matter what we believe, its what we can prove that is the crucial point of the case going forward.

Now, you're always going to have individuals in any organisation or group who will be corrupt - and this will be the case for the police, CPS, court, jury - but we also have to consider at some point the same may be true for the victim, suspect and witnesses. This all has to be put into the mixing pot and a decision made.

How we can better safeguard that decision is the golden question.

ScrollingLeaves · 16/11/2021 20:21

Almost zero can be proved in the way of showing the assailant didn’t believe there was consent; and that the raped person did not consent; and if the raped person has made one wrong move their case will not be deemed strong enough to go to court.

Most cases seem to end as trials by the police and CPS.

Only a tiny proportion of people who actually did rape someone will ever be convicted.

As previously discussed no one is sure what would improve this.

Far fewer men are raped than women though your point remains that they are raped too. The programme made clear that women would be the subject.

I think in the case of that predator who drugged and raped a whole succession of men, none of them would have been believed/the assailant prosecuted (in practice) either - had there not been the miracle of the rapist picking up the wrong phone and the police finding his incriminating one.

Isn’t that part of the patriarchy too somehow? Real men don’t get raped? But I am not sure how it works.

The patriarchy and allies are willing to solve the problem of male prisoners harming sex offenders by sending them to women’s prisons when those male sex offenders identify as woman.

ScrollingLeaves · 16/11/2021 20:22

That was in response to @Felix125 at 11.06

CheeseMmmm · 16/11/2021 21:04

'
I think in the case of that predator who drugged and raped a whole succession of men, none of them would have been believed/the assailant prosecuted (in practice) either - had there not been the miracle of the rapist picking up the wrong phone and the police finding his incriminating one.'

You're talking about Stephen port?

If so to the investigation into the police failings is ongoing, it's been in the press a lot.

Gay men who report assaults by men, when they decide to, are met with issues. Homophobic beliefs about gay men and drug use, promiscuity and so on.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/england

Or a different case?

For straight men to report has massive barriers I'm sure.

There are charities you'll be pleased to hear. Do police signpost these things to victims?

Here is one-
www.rainn.org/articles/sexual-assault-men-and-boys

Many of the well known services eg rape crisis also support men. There is help out there.

CheeseMmmm · 16/11/2021 21:09

Oh sorry I think you did mean the really prolific rapist.

You say none would be believed. You have said the police always investigate with female victims. But you think the police would have believed none of the men?

That's really extraordinary.

Even in the same force is say 20 separate men had reported? That was the issue with warboys woman after woman turned away.

Why do you think that there's such a stark difference in your force between women/ girls reports always being investigated but a male victim it wouldn't be?

ScrollingLeaves · 16/11/2021 22:16

CheeseMmm
I was thinking of Reynard Sinaga
www.bbc.com/news/uk-50688975
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50688975.amp

And I was thinking of what happened with this victim ( words below from the same BBC news report).

“It was just after midnight on 2 June 2017, when he approached his final victim.
A teenager, who left The Factory nightclub to get some fresh air after becoming separated from friends, agreed to go to Sinaga's flat after it was suggested he could try to contact them from there.
The man recalled nothing further until waking several hours later being sexually attacked by Sinaga.
“He immediately pushed Sinaga away, who responded by screaming "intruder" and "help", before repeatedly biting the teenager.
The man hit Sinaga several times, escaped from the flat, and then called police, who arrived to a chaotic scene.
Sinaga, who was discovered semi-conscious with serious injuries, was at first viewed sympathetically, and the teenager was arrested for assault.“/

CheeseMmmm · 16/11/2021 22:20

Has it ever been said how many had reported?

I've not seen that- I'll have a Google.

I find Felix info on male victims and belief worrying. Certainly police fucked up with the port case.

In the end sex offences across the board are as report author said essentially decriminalised.

Changing things for female victims- the largest group- will of course mean improvements for all.

Not that anything is going to change I'm sorry to say.

CheeseMmmm · 16/11/2021 22:24

'Like almost every victim, he had no idea he had been raped until being approached by police.

Another victim remembered his friends putting him in a cab outside a club. His next recollection was waking up in a strange apartment.

When he asked Sinaga what had happened, he described providing care and shelter after finding him lying in the street.

Another victim believed Sinaga had been "really nice and had looked after him".'

BBC
www.bbc.com/news/uk-50688975.amp

Mentions one victim who thought had been penetrated but didn't report.

Most victims were straight.

I suppose due to the circs etc it just didn't cross their mind that anything like that might have happened.

I'm surprised at that but that's how it seems to have been.

shreddednips · 16/11/2021 22:35

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

And the judge who said a 13 year old victim of sexual assault was a “sexual predator”, and pretty much painted the 41 year old man who assaulted her as her innocent victim. The 41 year old.man who incidentally had a very sizeable collection of images of child abuse.

That was only in 2013.

Felix I too appreciate your contributions as a serving police officer, but I think you also demonstrate a big part of the problem. I imagine your reluctance to see the whole issue of the prevalence of sexual crimes carried out by men against women, and the lack of justice for women victims of these crimes, as part of a wider cultural landscape is fairly common among police officers.

But denying that is never going to address the root of the problem, IMO, and as long as we don’t do that but just tinker around with the surface issues, then the problem will persist.

We have had literally thousands of years of male domination and female subjugation in virtually every culture worldwide. And it’s still overtly the case in many parts of the world today. The fact that we’ve had a few decades here in most of the western world of addressing the most blatant inequalities and injustices against women cannot possibly eradicate or balance out the ENORMOUS cultural bias that has accrued against women and in favour of men during those millennia.

Human beings don’t work that way. The human unconscious doesn’t work that way. There may be a majority of people in the UK who now consciously believe that women deserve to be treated with the same respect as men, but at the level of our collective unconscious (as Jung referred to it), we are all still massively influenced by the huge weight of the societal norms of the past that lie behind us.

No one exists in a cultural vacuum. Not male sex offenders, not female victims of sexual offences, not police officers investigating sexual offences, not prosecutors or defenders or judges or jurors trying the cases.

Some of those in the police and the CJS are obviously better than others at overcoming that cultural bias, and do an amazing job of supporting victims and delivering justice. Nazir Afzal stands out as an example of this, and at least one woman on the follow up programme said the police who investigated her case did a brilliant job. (Although I think the CPS then refused to take the case forward.)

But there are still too many stories of women being disbelieved, being treated really badly by the police and/or the CJS, being retraumatised by the whole process - some saying that process was even more traumatic than the actual assault/rape itself. The woman who reported the assault in the pub toilets certainly didn’t feel she’d gained anything at all from the process, and the whole thing affected her pretty badly.

I thought that comment from the police in the wake of Sarah Everard’s killler being convicted about what women should do to verify the identity of a man claiming to be a police officer and arresting them was a huge indicator of the failure to grasp the real problem. The point is that whatever we do, women cannot keep ourselves safe if some men are determined to prey on us, and if society as a whole has not yet got to the point of zero tolerance of the phenomenon of male VAWG.

We as a society are still far too tolerant of male violence, male sexual entitlement, and other “peccadilloes” like male abandonment of parental responsibility, and at the same time are still far too ready to judge, blame and punish women for being victims. It hasn’t come out of nowhere. It’s come out of centuries and centuries of the world being ordered that way.

It’s tied up with the fact that women are still punished for being raped in some parts of the world today. That girls are gang raped as punishment for crimes committed by their male relatives in some parts of the world today. That girls can’t access an education in some parts of the world today. That women need the permission of male guardians to do just about anything in some parts of the world today.

It’s tied up with the fact that no women at all were able to vote till 1918 and most not till 1928 in the UK. That women in Switzerland didn’t get the vote till 1971-1989, depending on which canton they lived in. That rape was historically seen as a mark of shame and dishonour on the woman who was raped and her husband or father. That marital rape was only criminalised in England and Wales in 1991. That coercive control has only very recently been recognised as a form of abuse. That a woman’s underwear can still be handed round a jury in a rape trial in the 21st century.

That when the Rotherham and other grooming gangs first came to light the police dismissed the whole thing saying the girls were making “lifestyle choices” and referring to them as prostitutes. This also in the 21st century. That when the mass New Year’s Eve sexual assaults happened in Cologne, the liberal media initially refused to report it or to acknowledge the facts of it because it made some men look bad. And with the fact that until very recently, under German law a woman could not claim to have been raped unless she had actively fought back.

None of these things are isolated and independent of each other. They are all part of a pattern, a wider picture and that picture is called patriarchy.

That doesn’t mean that all men, or even a majority of men, are sexual offenders. But it does mean that society still enables to a far greater extent than we would like to believe the significant minority who are, and likewise still blames and judges to a far greater extent than we would like to believe the women they offend against.

We are in agreement Felix about the importance of practical ways of moving forward with this, such as rape victims having the chance to “practise” being cross examined, and possibly removing the jury - but only if the rest of the CJS receives thorough and much better training on the issue than at present. Another option would be mandatory training on rape myths and unconscious bias against women for all jurors selected to serve on rape trials, before the actual trial proceeds.

But IMO there has to be a fundamental cultural shift towards recognising and redressing that huge bias that still exists against women and in favour of men, and recognising and addressing the tacit societal endorsement of male sexual entitlement. Until we do that, the unconscious sexism and misogyny will just find new outlets to escape through, as fast as we plug up the ones already there.

Incredible post. You've said everything I wanted to say about this far better than I ever could have put it.

One point that occurred to me is that I got a strong sense that women reporting rape don't have the process explained to them properly. For example, a lot of women mentioned that they were asked what they were wearing.

@Felix125 said that a possible reason this might be asked is that it's necessary to know in order to gather CCTV or forensic evidence, which had occurred to me while I was watching. If that's the case, shouldn't it be standard for interviewers to explain why they're asking certain questions? For example, the reason I'm asking you what you were wearing is because it will help us to identify you on CCTV footage. Or even for women to be able to meet with an advocate or even a lawyer to prepare them for the types of questions they will be asked and why?

I would have felt scrutinised and blamed if I had been asked by the police what I was wearing (I never reported) because I wouldn't necessarily expect to be believed. If the police are aware of the fact that some questions will appear loaded (and they should be aware) but have a legitimate reason for asking, surely there is a better way to deliver the questions?

CheeseMmmm · 16/11/2021 22:47

100% any woman reporting rape and many girls prob would feel very much dismayed by that question. The history with it (and I think it happened with a case in Ireland the one with the rugby players) is just too massive and negative.

I think women in Ireland protested waving knickers around. Good for them.

CheeseMmmm · 16/11/2021 22:49

No we're not Ireland but obv that case was widely reported here. And it used to happen here. Until fairly recently and read something saying still can if can argue relevant.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46207304

ScrollingLeaves · 16/11/2021 23:24

File on 4 - Reynhard Sinaga: Britain’s most prolific rapist - BBC Sounds
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000p10t

About 10.50 in the man who woke up being raped beat up Senaga and went out and called the police. You hear the call to the police and how upset the victim is. He tells the police during the call that he had hit Senaga to stop him and that he has blood on him.They find Senaga all covered in blood and semi-unconscious, so they send him to hospital and arrest the victim on a charge of assault!

Had it not been that in the hospital Senega kept worrying about getting his phone back and the policeman getting suspicious, and then finding footage not just of this rape but many many others; and finding a second phone with more …… that assault charge on the victim would have stood most likely.

About 30.30 in you hear that during the court case, in spite of all the footage, the defence keeps putting it to the victims that what is on the videos is them in consensual role-play.
(We know the defence has to use this sort of tactic, but tactic is what it is. That’s the sort of tactic that can be enough to sow the seed of doubt that leads to acquittal. Here because there were just so many victims the tactic didn’t work,)

ScrollingLeaves · 16/11/2021 23:29

Shreddednips
“I would have felt scrutinised and blamed if I had been asked by the police what I was wearing (I never reported) because I wouldn't necessarily expect to be believed. “

I am very sorry.

shreddednips · 16/11/2021 23:29

@CheeseMmmm

100% any woman reporting rape and many girls prob would feel very much dismayed by that question. The history with it (and I think it happened with a case in Ireland the one with the rugby players) is just too massive and negative.

I think women in Ireland protested waving knickers around. Good for them.

Exactly. Anyone investigating or involved in the process of prosecuting rape ought to be aware of the historical weight attached to that sort of questioning and, therefore, explain the rationale behind asking it every single time so that women don't fee stigmatised. If they're not aware, I'd argue that the training received clearly isn't adequate to make them capable of fulfilling the grave responsibility of interviewing traumatised victims. I can see that there clearly are situations where the question is appropriate (PP's CCTV example) but it needs to be made very clear what the reason actually is.
shreddednips · 16/11/2021 23:36

@ScrollingLeaves

Shreddednips “I would have felt scrutinised and blamed if I had been asked by the police what I was wearing (I never reported) because I wouldn't necessarily expect to be believed. “

I am very sorry.

Thank you Thanks I think the program highlighted that women are quite justified in feeling that they won't be believed/taken seriously. Just from the point of view of feeling prepared to report, it would help if there was real clarity of the sorts of questions one should expect and why they will be asked. And the lines of questioning/types of things said (do you think it was wise to go out on your own at night was something a woman in the program said) that should never be pursued. If the guidelines are there and they aren't being followed consistently (as it seemed in the programme) then I think anyone reporting rape should have access to a legal representative to protect their right to fair and appropriate interviewing until it's sorted out.
CheeseMmmm · 16/11/2021 23:38

Sorry I've not got time to listen but the system is certainly failing across the board. Over and over.

I can't seeing anything being done.

The police officer upthread who said any man reporting would not be believed I mean FFS.

The system is not fit for purpose when it comes to this or DV.

I can't see it changing.

The fact that after couzens they didn't say right we're going to treat indecent exposure seriously from now on. I mean it's been known for decades they often escalate. And it's a crime in itself, offenders often seem to be prolific. But you know. Not of interest to them.

Felix125 · 17/11/2021 10:59

@CheeseMmmm

Sorry I've not got time to listen but the system is certainly failing across the board. Over and over.

I can't seeing anything being done.

The police officer upthread who said any man reporting would not be believed I mean FFS.

The system is not fit for purpose when it comes to this or DV.

I can't see it changing.

The fact that after couzens they didn't say right we're going to treat indecent exposure seriously from now on. I mean it's been known for decades they often escalate. And it's a crime in itself, offenders often seem to be prolific. But you know. Not of interest to them.

I never said they would not be believed - i said that this may be their perception for not reporting - and how this would be similar to a female victim not reporting.

And we do treat indecent exposure seriously. There was a case in the news last week or so where a male committed an act of indecent exposure to a camera. Police attended his house and he refused them entry to investigate. So entry was forced and he was arrested and physically restrained - yet the police were criticised in the press

JosephineDeBeauharnais · 17/11/2021 11:06

Men think rape is about sex, women know that it isn’t. Until it is no longer framed in a sexual context, issues of “provocation” 🙄 will always be brought into the defence. Rape is a crime of violence and should be prosecuted as Grevious Bodily Harm.

Felix125 · 17/11/2021 11:17

shreddednips
The first responder (rape trained officers). A simplified example of the initial contact by police. And this is standard 'operating procedure' (probably not the right term) for officers such as me from the training given. From the program, it didn't say when the bad experiences from the police happened - recently or many years ago - but this is what we do.

So, I will be dispatched to the victim. My role is safeguarding with them as a priority. Then we need to establish where the scene is and who the suspect is. They obviously need arresting and scene protecting (which I direct others to do because of cross contamination reasons - obviously unless the circumstances mean I have no choice). And there may be several scenes identified.

Then we get an initial account off the victim, early evidence samples (mouth wash, urine samples), seizing clothing, any other evidence such as phone messages, CCTV etc - and then we take the victim for the medical examination (so long as we are in the 'forensic time window'). This is all with the consent of the victim - so they do not have to do any part of this if they don't want - and I will certainly not pressure them into doing something they don't want to do regardless of conviction figures.

Rape trained officers are about 50/50 male to female officers on our force. A victim can request a either a male or female officer if they wish, but we tend to find that victims generally don't mind either way and don't make that specific request. They tend to explain that its the initial 15-20 minutes with an officer that's important to develop trust or a 'bond'. Once that 'bond' is established the victim will be able to tell you everything and feel comfortable in doing that. So i use this 'bonding' time by introducing myself and explaining our role and the procedure to follow. So during this time i will explain why their clothing description may be important and why we need to seize them.

During this 'bonding' time, the victim will share what they want to happen with this case. Some explain that they don't want to go as far as court and just want to have it reported or 'logged'. Are happy that the suspect is arrested and spend the night in the cells - but doesn't want to go through the court process later. Some want it reporting, but they don't want to go through the medical procedure. Some just want access to the support services and contact the police to get them - but if they explain to the operator that they have been raped and need support services help then we still need to log the crime, see the victim and identify/arrest the suspect. Some go straight to the support services and do not want any police action at all - but the support services are duty bound to report it to us. And as i said above, i don't think we should pressure the victim into proceeding with a case if they don't want to. And honestly (and i know its anecdotal) I've never had any victim say to me that they don't feel believed or feel as though they won't be believed/supported through the process.

Then beyond this, the investigation gets passed to an investigating body within the police - say CID, DV Unit, Child Abuse Unit, HBV Unit etc. Other bodies get involved - so Sex Offenders unit, Vulnerable Adults unit, Public Protection unit etc.

Sorry about the word 'bond' I know its probably not the right word - but hopefully you can see what i mean.

So, do you think the process from a police point of view is good? And i know they will be corrupt people in the police that don't follow this, but this is the procedure that's in place as it stands. Is there anything that stands out that could change for the benefit of victims?

And again, I am not trying to be argumentative here or try to say that the police are perfect - i am genuinely interested in moving things forward for the better. I hope my experiences can show a different view point to build from and move forward.

Felix125 · 17/11/2021 11:23

@JosephineDeBeauharnais

Men think rape is about sex, women know that it isn’t. Until it is no longer framed in a sexual context, issues of “provocation” 🙄 will always be brought into the defence. Rape is a crime of violence and should be prosecuted as Grevious Bodily Harm.
Its is seen as a crime of violence.

It can't be classed as GBH as the definition of this offence stipulates an injury or wound that has broken the skin or beyond. Therefore if no injury has occurred during the sexual encounter, then no offence would have been committed.

Rape should be a stand alone offence as it is now.

Outbutnotoutout · 17/11/2021 11:27

The police officer in the programme is the acting Chef Constable for Avon and Somerset Constabulary. She is also the lead for violence against women and girls.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/11/2021 12:47

@Felix125
You mentioned that some victims feel they only want to report the rape and have it logged.

Say a particular man has had a report against him made by different women, on different occasions over several years - 1. are the police and CPS allowed to look at this record when deciding whether or not to try to bring a case to prosecution if the latest victim wants that? 2. Is it allowed to be mentioned to the jury during the court case?