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Feminism: chat

Channel 4, Rape 'Who's on trial'

113 replies

MrMrsJones · 08/11/2021 21:19

Follows Avon and Somerset police after 2yrs investigations into 4 serious sexual crime investigations

OP posts:
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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 11/11/2021 17:51

I watched both programmes and the case of the woman in the pub toilets particularly has haunted me. She didn’t lie about the photos she sent, Felix125, she just didn’t mention them at all in her initial statement. Possibly out of shame - when she was recounting the assault she had her hand covering her face, a typical shame reaction. Just heartbreaking to watch.

It was dreadful how the photos instantly meant she lost all credibility with the police. As if once she’d sent those she’d waived her right to refuse consent to absolutely anything else. Here’s a topless photo of me: you are now entitled to assault, rape or sodomise me, anything you like, without fear of any consequences - I mean, WTF?

And yes, young women are being given the message that this is expected of them. All the sex positive crap: just a rehash of the toxic shite that was so prevalent in the 60’s and 70’s - if you’re not up for it you’re a frigid bore and no man is going to be interested in you; if you are up for it you’re a fucking slag and you deserve everything you get.

The double standards for female and male sexual behaviour are still so stark. The misogyny is so blatant.

I think a fundamental part of the process of prosecuting sexual offences should be that the victim gets the chance to meet with the barrister for the prosecution beforehand and role play giving evidence, to practise being cross examined so she can get an idea of what it’s going to be like in a safer, less traumatic environment than the actual court case. And to be aware of how the defence barrister may try to trip her up and how to stay focused on her account if that’s the case.

It must be so traumatic anyway but I can’t imagine how much more stressful it must be to go into court never even having met the barrister who’s prosecuting (I believe that’s the case usually?) and never having had a chance to “practise” giving evidence before you’re actually there with the judge and jury, and the defence barrister.

I think there’s something in the idea of having a similar system to family courts (although there are too many horror stories there too) rather than trial by jury - misogyny is still too embedded and widespread, among women as well as men, for women to have much chance of justice at the hands of people who’ve been raised on a diet of woman blaming and rape myths.

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ScrollingLeaves · 11/11/2021 19:12

Re: no juries I was once in a jury where marital/live in partner rape was the issue

The judge as good as told the jury that the woman was not being truthful, but had another agenda; and that - given she had been in an abusive relationship previously - it was too much to believe she was in another one now. But I and some other women knew that it was common knowledge that woman who have been abused do indeed often find themselves in a succession of abusive relationships. It was so surprising that the judge didn’t have that information.

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Felix125 · 11/11/2021 19:38

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark
Yes, they might be reasons why she didn't mention the photos - shame, embarrassment etc etc - and all are valid reasons. But she needs to say that when asked by police, particularity if the existence of these photos have been brought up by the suspect as his defence statement/interview.

And the police are not saying that she has lost all credibility and the man had the right to do anything he wanted. The defence will raise this in court and use it bring doubt in the jury's mind as to her credibility. They will try and raise that the victim is being selective with the truth so to speak. And then thats enough to cast doubt in the jury's minds.

From a police point of view, she can send as many topless, naked photos as she wants to him - none of this will give any consent to a person to sexual assault, rape or do anything to her.

So, if we are to examine the point of why she didn't disclose she sent the photos (and she may have been too embarrassed, shame, or simply forgot due to the traumatic nature of the offence - all valid reasons) should we do this at a police stage of the investigation or wait until it gets brought up at court?

You have a good point about having an intermediary type court where the prosecution can prepare the victim properly - we do already have witness care & support and other such organisations which do this. Perhaps more should be put into this to ensure we have a stronger case as possible.

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 11/11/2021 20:40

But from what we saw on the programme, they didn’t even ask her those questions, Felix. It seemed to be that it was a case of “we spoke to the guy, he told us about the photos, we checked and she did indeed send the photos, game over.” The order to drop the whole thing came from the DSU, who just seemed to be saying that there was no way the CPS would touch it now that it was known she’d sent him a topless picture of herself beforehand.

If there was more discussion it certainly wasn’t shown or even alluded to on the programme, nor did the victim say they’d asked her anything more about them.

It really did come across that the thinking was once she’d sent that, there was no way to charge, prosecute, or convict him for anything he did afterwards.

She also said btw that she believed he would have gone on to rape her if another man hadn’t come into the toilets while he was assaulting her in a cubicle. Would the topless selfie have been permission for him to do that too, I wonder? Seemed like it.

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 11/11/2021 20:50

I despair for teenage girls who are sending nude texts to boys because that’s now expected. Then those photos stored on their phone could be used to show they might be the sort of girl in general who was asking for sex (which was actually an assault or rape); or if they send one to a boyfriend that will be potentially consent to rape. In such an event, should they be too embarrassed to tell the police about the photo during the interview, or just forget seeing they are in shock, then their account about everything else will fall into doubt.

Absolutely this. It really is expected of so many girls and young women these days, and I think many of them have internalised the idea that this is what you do if you’re “sex positive”, if you don’t want to be seen (or to see yourself) as some sad, sexless, unadventurous, vanilla bore.

But the sexual double standards are as horrific as ever, so when young women like this do get assaulted, their previous (consensual) behaviour is used to “prove” they were up for it, or that the man reasonably thought they were up for it. And, as you say, if they don’t mention it straightaway it’s used to discredit them overall.

We need to address the fact that these double standards are alive and kicking today just as much as they ever were, that there is still a completely different perception of a man with an enthusiastic attitude towards sex with multiple partners than towards a woman with the same. And that jurors inevitably share and buy into those perceptions.

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 11/11/2021 20:59

You have a good point about having an intermediary type court where the prosecution can prepare the victim properly - we do already have witness care & support and other such organisations which do this. Perhaps more should be put into this to ensure we have a stronger case as possible.

It’s good to know there is something like this but yes definitely more needs to be done and I think it really needs to be done by barristers who are used to actually conducting cross examinations themselves, to have it as close to an experience of the real thing as possible.

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CheeseMmmm · 11/11/2021 22:10

Often girls are coerced by boys into sending the pics, important to remember.

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CheeseMmmm · 11/11/2021 22:10

Or by adults.

Or groomed into doing so.

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 12/11/2021 10:32

Yes absolutely - though in this case I would say it’s a case almost of society grooming this young woman into believing this is something she wants to do. There is such a strong cultural message that this is how a sexy young woman behaves - and still against the perennial backdrop of female people seeking, whether consciously or not, the approval of male people, doing whatever is deemed necessary to get that male attention.

Because patriarchy.

I mean, all of it’s about patriarchy, isn’t it - the fact that men rape and sexually assault in such numbers (11.4% of male students in a recent UK survey admitted to carrying out sexual offences; I think the true percentage is probably even higher), the fact that women are culturally groomed into colluding with their own abuse, as in this case of sending a nude picture to a complete stranger who turned out to be a dangerous predator; the fact that the justice system is so pathetically inadequate when it comes to prosecuting sex offenders; the fact that porn and prostitution culture is so rife and pervasive and “sanitised” versions like Only Fans are now semi mainstream; the fact that women are still blamed, judged and shamed for being victims of sexual offences… it’s all rooted in patriarchy, ultimately.

And I think this appalling situation will sadly persist until we recognise and challenge that ongoing patriarchal male dominance and female dehumanisation at a fundamental level.

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lifeissweet · 12/11/2021 13:49

What struck me is that the message of enthusiastic consent just isn't getting through to the population at any level. The idea that acquiescence is sufficient to consent is hugely problematic.

If men are still able to claim they thought they had consent based on photos or flirting or even kissing... and juries/police/CPS say 'yeah. You might have thought that. Fair enough.' Then we aren't going to get anywhere.

The threshold is too high. It shouldn't be 'could he potentially have believed he had consent.' It should be 'was he sure he had consent? How?' And the answer has to be better than 'she kissed me.'

The girls in the hotel. They were too drunk to unequivocally consent. Seeing that poor girl collapse was enough to make it game over for me. The jury obviously just saw them not pushing him away or shouting at him (and even leaning into him) and decided they couldn't be sure he didn't believe they'd consented. They were smashed. It makes it so difficult. I know I have been really drunk in the past (long distant) and had very drunk sex I couldn't remember with someone I would never have done that with when sober. It doesn't feel good, but I couldn't claim not to have consented. I did - just with MASSIVELY impaired judgement. I think strangers having sex with falling-down drunk women can't claim consent. Even when the woman is tearing her own clothes off. Just an opinion. Maybe not a popular one.

Until we get the definition of consent sorted and properly hold men to account for being absolutely sure they have it then nothing will change.

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CheeseMmmm · 13/11/2021 02:58

The other thing with that is that women who have drunken consensual sex don't tend to go around reporting it to the police. Nor do women who get hammered and do something they regret.

Because despite that being talked about all the time. The fact is that women aren't generally-

Incapable of thinking oh FFS I can't believe I did that. And then getting on with life

Interested in lying to the police. For reasons that no one ever actually specifies

Unaware of the fact that it's vanishingly unlikely to get anywhere

The vast vast vast majority of the time when a woman (or a girl) reports a rape/ sexual assault it's because that's what happened.

The popularity of the idea that we are vindictive, liars etc doesn't go away though...

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 13/11/2021 11:52

Absolutely, CheeseMmmmm. Spot on.

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Felix125 · 13/11/2021 14:54

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark
The photos should not have had any bearing on the actual assault & whether consent was given or not. She could have sent him loads of similar photos - but if she didn't consent to being sexually assaulted, then that is the offence complete. I haven't seen the program yet (work gets in the way) but if that was raised in his interview then in needs to be investigated further and the victim spoken with. They shouldn't have just written it off at that point without doing this.

Interestingly, did the victim make a complaint about him touching & kissing her when she first went into the cubicle. This would be sexual assault by touching and would need consent off the victim.

I don't think this is a patriarchal thing - I think it just shows that bad things happen to people and their are bad people out there that commit such things. I don't think that as a society most men think that sexual offences are acceptable at all. Most attacks on sex offenders are carried out by men. And I think a lot of females send nude type photos by their own choice and are not pressured into doing so. Most strippers (male & female) in the industry are there because they enjoy the job and want to do it.

If women have drunken consensual sex then they would not report this at all - as it was consensual.

And there might be a whole host of reasons why sexual assaults are reported that have not happened in the way the victim states. These can range from one night stands and they don't want the partners to find out, sexual encounters that have later been regretted, out right false vindictive reports, victims unaware that the incident has happened right beneath a CCTV camera and its captured everything - I've come across them all.

And the law still states that a person is innocent until proven guilty. So we have to prove the offence is complete and that no consent was given or he ought to have known that.

Maybe in future we will look more at advancing technologies to protect victims. Maybe you can have an app on you phone or a tiny body cam pinned to your top which is on constant record. Police body cams are on constant record for a 10 minute period. So when they press the record button, it automatically starts the recording off from 10 minutes prior to the record button being pressed.

Or can you suggest what else can be done to secure more convictions at either a police/cps or court level.

I don't know - its a difficult one and i do not know the answers but i think talking about it will move things forward

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 13/11/2021 17:57

I don't think this is a patriarchal thing - I think it just shows that bad things happen to people and their are bad people out there that commit such things.

What an extraordinary response from someone on a feminist chat board. Like saying it’s just coincidence that so many black people are victims of police violence in the USA, or just coincidence that gay people are victims of queer bashing, or that most DV is perpetrated by men against women.

May I ask what your interest in feminism is? (I presume you have an interest, being on this board.) And what sex you are?

Re the case under discussion, I can only suggest you watch the programme and see for yourself. Of course we don’t know what was cut out in the editing process, but from what we see it certainly looks like they found her account credible to begin with and there was a good chance of them proceeding with it, but that on discovering she’d sent him the photos, they wrote the case off.

I believe you when you say that isn’t what’s meant to happen, but in this case it appears it’s what did happen. The senior (female) police officer in the programme, who actually asked for the programme to be made, seemed to be similarly nonplussed that the way things actually are happening is not how they’re suppose to happen.

“That’s hard to hear” was her constant, ineffectual, and deeply annoying refrain when women told her how let down or even further traumatised they felt by the police process. It may well have been hard for her to hear, but it must have been a damn sight harder for the women to live through.

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 13/11/2021 18:04

Interestingly, did the victim make a complaint about him touching & kissing her when she first went into the cubicle. This would be sexual assault by touching and would need consent off the victim.

Yes, she said the moment she went in there - expecting a bit of kissing - he grabbed her and shoved her into a cubicle and immediately started groping her while pulling her hair, putting his hands around her throat, and kissing her very roughly. There was a real sense of him using a lot of force against her, right from the get go; that this was him just doing what he wanted to her rather than it being a mutual, consensual encounter as she expected and was up for. And on the CCTV you could see he was a big bloke - the police commented on that too.

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ScrollingLeaves · 13/11/2021 18:12

And he rushed off and out of the pub when another person came in.

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CheeseMmmm · 13/11/2021 21:19

The rushing out of the pub is presumably totally standard as well as the way he instigated this sexual encounter.

Men who are enjoying a consensual enjoyable sexual encounter would never just stop and say someone coming better leave bogs. And leave with her and have another drink. And maybe pick up the sex part again later somewhere if she was up for it....

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ScrollingLeaves · 14/11/2021 01:36

“CheeseMmmm
Men who are enjoying a consensual enjoyable sexual encounter would never just stop and say someone coming better leave bogs. And leave with her and have another drink. And maybe pick up the sex part again later somewhere if she was up for it....”

I agree.

I wonder how he feels about his narrow escape and if his wife ever found out.

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CheeseMmmm · 14/11/2021 02:03

In general if someone reports a crime. And there is footage of the person running away when disturbed during crime. That's seen as a pointer they were doing something iffy I'd have thought?

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CheeseMmmm · 14/11/2021 03:03

'And there might be a whole host of reasons why sexual assaults are reported that have not happened in the way the victim states. These can range from one night stands and they don't want the partners to find out, sexual encounters that have later been regretted, out right false vindictive reports, victims unaware that the incident has happened right beneath a CCTV camera and its captured everything - I've come across them all.'

Interesting.

Got any stats?

You were responding to me so you disagree that
'The vast vast vast majority of the time when a woman (or a girl) reports a rape/ sexual assault it's because that's what happened.'.

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CheeseMmmm · 14/11/2021 03:04

'Maybe in future we will look more at advancing technologies to protect victims. Maybe you can have an app on you phone or a tiny body cam pinned to your top which is on constant record. Police body cams are on constant record for a 10 minute period. So when they press the record button, it automatically starts the recording off from 10 minutes prior to the record button being pressed.'

Or men could wear bodycams to protect themselves from all the false accusations by girls and women?

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Felix125 · 14/11/2021 03:59

@CheeseMmmm

In general if someone reports a crime. And there is footage of the person running away when disturbed during crime. That's seen as a pointer they were doing something iffy I'd have thought?

Of course, but it will not be enough to prove the offence on its own.

I'm not disagreeing with you when you say that the vast majority majority of the time when a woman (or a girl) reports a rape/ sexual assault it's because that's what happened. My point is that they are occasions (just like all crimes) when its not how the initial report states. That's why it must be investigated and the defence will latch onto any gaps in the evidence the police present. The stats for the false reports will be difficult to find, most are closed as insufficient evidence to proceed.

I think the body cams for both women & men be also be a thing to consider. Like i said before, we do have a number of occasions where phones were put on voice record during a 'sexual encounter' to prove they asked for consent. Of course a lot of people will probably not wear them - but a lot said the same thing about using car cameras and they seem to be everywhere now. You could have an app on your phone which is just constantly running 24/7.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here - just putting my point across from what I have experienced as i think its important to have a fuller picture as possible in order to move forward. I joined the job to protect people and lock up the criminals and would love to improve the stats for rape convictions.

And moving forward I like to hear ideas as to how to achieve this goal. Removing the jury and having an intermediary court to help prepare victims have been some good suggestions so far.
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ScrollingLeaves · 14/11/2021 08:48

Felix125
“Removing the jury …..,,”
If so, the judges would need to be trained, and include equal numbers of women and minority groups.

I personally heard a judge in a wife rape case where I was on the jury tell the court she must be lying because she had been in an abusive relationship before this one, so why would she be in another. (We know that women who have endured abuse in their lives do often go from one abusive relationship to another.)

And there was once a judge who said the father who had raped his eight year old daughter when his wife was pregnant was just a red blooded man.

And a judge who said that a raped girl who had been hitch-hiking had been guilty of contributory negligence.

Some of these are old cases now, so perhaps fewer now would think along these lines, but judges, however clever they are at understanding the logic of law, may not be especially capable of understanding people.

Thanks Felix125 for your contribution based on your experience in the police.

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 14/11/2021 11:01

And the judge who said a 13 year old victim of sexual assault was a “sexual predator”, and pretty much painted the 41 year old man who assaulted her as her innocent victim. The 41 year old.man who incidentally had a very sizeable collection of images of child abuse.

That was only in 2013.

Felix I too appreciate your contributions as a serving police officer, but I think you also demonstrate a big part of the problem. I imagine your reluctance to see the whole issue of the prevalence of sexual crimes carried out by men against women, and the lack of justice for women victims of these crimes, as part of a wider cultural landscape is fairly common among police officers.

But denying that is never going to address the root of the problem, IMO, and as long as we don’t do that but just tinker around with the surface issues, then the problem will persist.

We have had literally thousands of years of male domination and female subjugation in virtually every culture worldwide. And it’s still overtly the case in many parts of the world today. The fact that we’ve had a few decades here in most of the western world of addressing the most blatant inequalities and injustices against women cannot possibly eradicate or balance out the ENORMOUS cultural bias that has accrued against women and in favour of men during those millennia.

Human beings don’t work that way. The human unconscious doesn’t work that way. There may be a majority of people in the UK who now consciously believe that women deserve to be treated with the same respect as men, but at the level of our collective unconscious (as Jung referred to it), we are all still massively influenced by the huge weight of the societal norms of the past that lie behind us.

No one exists in a cultural vacuum. Not male sex offenders, not female victims of sexual offences, not police officers investigating sexual offences, not prosecutors or defenders or judges or jurors trying the cases.

Some of those in the police and the CJS are obviously better than others at overcoming that cultural bias, and do an amazing job of supporting victims and delivering justice. Nazir Afzal stands out as an example of this, and at least one woman on the follow up programme said the police who investigated her case did a brilliant job. (Although I think the CPS then refused to take the case forward.)

But there are still too many stories of women being disbelieved, being treated really badly by the police and/or the CJS, being retraumatised by the whole process - some saying that process was even more traumatic than the actual assault/rape itself. The woman who reported the assault in the pub toilets certainly didn’t feel she’d gained anything at all from the process, and the whole thing affected her pretty badly.

I thought that comment from the police in the wake of Sarah Everard’s killler being convicted about what women should do to verify the identity of a man claiming to be a police officer and arresting them was a huge indicator of the failure to grasp the real problem. The point is that whatever we do, women cannot keep ourselves safe if some men are determined to prey on us, and if society as a whole has not yet got to the point of zero tolerance of the phenomenon of male VAWG.

We as a society are still far too tolerant of male violence, male sexual entitlement, and other “peccadilloes” like male abandonment of parental responsibility, and at the same time are still far too ready to judge, blame and punish women for being victims. It hasn’t come out of nowhere. It’s come out of centuries and centuries of the world being ordered that way.

It’s tied up with the fact that women are still punished for being raped in some parts of the world today. That girls are gang raped as punishment for crimes committed by their male relatives in some parts of the world today. That girls can’t access an education in some parts of the world today. That women need the permission of male guardians to do just about anything in some parts of the world today.

It’s tied up with the fact that no women at all were able to vote till 1918 and most not till 1928 in the UK. That women in Switzerland didn’t get the vote till 1971-1989, depending on which canton they lived in. That rape was historically seen as a mark of shame and dishonour on the woman who was raped and her husband or father. That marital rape was only criminalised in England and Wales in 1991. That coercive control has only very recently been recognised as a form of abuse. That a woman’s underwear can still be handed round a jury in a rape trial in the 21st century.

That when the Rotherham and other grooming gangs first came to light the police dismissed the whole thing saying the girls were making “lifestyle choices” and referring to them as prostitutes. This also in the 21st century. That when the mass New Year’s Eve sexual assaults happened in Cologne, the liberal media initially refused to report it or to acknowledge the facts of it because it made some men look bad. And with the fact that until very recently, under German law a woman could not claim to have been raped unless she had actively fought back.

None of these things are isolated and independent of each other. They are all part of a pattern, a wider picture and that picture is called patriarchy.

That doesn’t mean that all men, or even a majority of men, are sexual offenders. But it does mean that society still enables to a far greater extent than we would like to believe the significant minority who are, and likewise still blames and judges to a far greater extent than we would like to believe the women they offend against.

We are in agreement Felix about the importance of practical ways of moving forward with this, such as rape victims having the chance to “practise” being cross examined, and possibly removing the jury - but only if the rest of the CJS receives thorough and much better training on the issue than at present. Another option would be mandatory training on rape myths and unconscious bias against women for all jurors selected to serve on rape trials, before the actual trial proceeds.

But IMO there has to be a fundamental cultural shift towards recognising and redressing that huge bias that still exists against women and in favour of men, and recognising and addressing the tacit societal endorsement of male sexual entitlement. Until we do that, the unconscious sexism and misogyny will just find new outlets to escape through, as fast as we plug up the ones already there.

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ScrollingLeaves · 14/11/2021 12:18

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark 11.01
Yes to all you said. Thank you for putting those thoughts so clearly.

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