Three types of "single sex" spaces

[LaetitiaASD]

I was thinking about this over the weekend... it seems to me that there are three types of single sex spaces.

The first are places like public toilets, lesbian bars and rape crisis centres which are (or should be) single sex for exceptionally good reasons of safety, comfort and privacy.

The second are (were?) places like golf clubs and private members clubs - men only spaces where important decisions were made and deals happened. They have, in the main I think, been opened up to women, rightfully, because you can't have sexual equality if women can't access all of the places where power resides.

But what of the third type? It strikes me that there are other places that are much less clear cut, but that there are strong arguments for other single sex spaces despite the need being much much smaller than the need for single space refuges and toilets.

Mother and baby group - on the one hand obviously men should not be excluded from SAHP activities, but then again sometimes women might want to discuss things with other women which relate to motherhood not parenthood, and might not want a man there. I would have some sympathy for a SAH man who couldn't find a parent / baby group, but on the other hand I would have full sympathy for a woman who wanted a mother and baby group and who didn;t feel that it was her job to accommodate SAHP who are male.

Football matches - OK, they're not and never have been single space, and obviously plenty of women love football and cannot / should not be barred... but on the other hand it seems to me legitimate for men to wish to enjoy a visceral, emotional, tribal event in the company of men and without women there. On the one hand football should be family friendly, on the other hand is there not an argument that men have a right to spaces where they can go and shout and scream and swear and let it all out without women and children around? Are men losing out by football become more family friendly? [To be clear I am in no way arguing for women and kids to be banned from football, just pointing out that there are some arguments that making it more family friend.

Book group - what is wrong with having a book group which is by and for women, with an idea that the books chosen might be more female-centric than a mixed book group, and that the women there are there to talk a bit about their lives and women's issues not just the books?

Men's support groups - toxic masculinity, mental health - surely men's groups where men support other men with no hint of womanhood anywhere near is something that should be encouraged - arguably is being encouraged.

I don't know what I'm trying to say or ask... I suppose...

Does everyone agree that certain spaces need to be single sex, and some categorically need to be open to both sexes to ensure women are not excluded from power?

What does everyone think about the "need" for "non-essential single sex spaces?" Is there an argument that in the trans / GC "debate" the focus is on essential single sex spaces, and that as a result the need to protect the less essential ones is being completely forgotten?

Interesting topic.
I assume you also mean gay bars should be male only and there should also be rape crisis centres that are male only?

It is my understanding that “mother and baby group” are to help with the baby more than the “mother”. Why would you have more sympathy for a female who accommodates a male in this setting than the male…sounds a bit sexist to me. It’s already extremely difficult for dads/ male care givers be, surely excluding them from groups reinforces the idea that childcare is “women’s work”.

Football - my club have a “family” section, presumably so that parents can make the decision to somewhat shield their children from swearing. However, why would men not be able to express themselves at a football match the same way in front of a male or a female…are women so fragile that swearing at a bad refereeing decision is damaging?

Book club - I do think the idea of genre clubs are good, they would no doubt only attract those with similar interests/ life experiences and create a “safe space” for members. This would be true for all genders.

I do think there is a need for male/ female/ etc support groups. An idea that should be encouraged for all genders

I think “non essential” spaces are gendered by social/ cultural norms, such as toddlers groups, sports bars etc. By the time people reach adulthood these divisions are pretty engraved and I personally feel more needs to be done with children to prevent this. It’s sad that in this day and age children are told that certain toys are “not for boys” or that “girls shouldn't …”.

I think that either both men and women are allowed to set up and run single sex interest/hobby/sports groups or neither (I'd vote for both and if that means men only golf clubs so be it). I also think that running sex segregated playgroups and baby groups is a bit regressive. But toilets/changing rooms/hospital wards/prisons should def be single sex if the safety, privacy and comfort of users might be compromised by mixed facilities. Obv with some exceptions (like the ICU)

Absolutely not football if you mean big competitions. Football teams should be sex segregated of course.
Not baby groups either, we will never get equality if you try and shut men out of parenting babies. Breastfeeding groups and anything specifically mother recovery related - basically anything where people are vulnerable for sex based reason, and others where women are vulnerable more generally as they are more at risk from men than the other way around eg prisons. Keep it to that I think.

To clarify and answer all three respondents.

Rape crisis centres - it is clear that women need single sex facilities. I don't know if men need the same not least as, by definition, a male rape victim will not have been raped by someone of the opposite sex. Obviously if the demand is there then rape crisis centres for men need to be protected.

Gay and lesbian bars. I think that it is perfectly legitimate if the management want the single sex. I think more realistically they should try to ensure that the vast majority of customers are gay men or lesbians as applicable, and that if men are in a lesbian bar it is as (probably gay) friends of lesbians, not as lesbians.

Mother and baby - I think that there is a role for mother and baby, dad and baby and parent and baby groups. I think it would be disgraceful if a mother and baby group which was about women's issues and baby were unable to keep a dad out, a dad that would completely change the dynamic.

Anywhere that men meet to discuss business and do business and political deals needs to be mixed sex.

I was most interested in the third set of spaces - the ones that tend to be dominated by one sex or another. Football match crowds and knitting groups might be two very cliched examples. I would have thought that a typical knitting group would be about knitting and womanhood / friendship / support. A typical football supporter is a man who wants to get drunk and sing and swear and have some "man time".

OBVIOUSLY I would not want to make attending football matches single sex... but it would be a legitimate thing IMHO for men to form a club to watch their local team's away fixtures on a TV in single-sex space, a space for adult men only.

Likewise it is legitimate for a woman to say "I like knitting, but for me it's about womanhood and support too - I would never join a mixed knitting group".

I think that, whilst most things should be mixed and some things categorically shouldn't be mixed, there are plenty of activities that are legitimate to organise on a single sex basis. Focussing on essential services for women is obviously the priority, but I think we need to remember that many if not most women AND MEN benefit from being able to open up or let off steam in a single sex space. Just because we're focussing on protecting women prisoners and women in wards in hospital doesn't mean we should forget the need to retain the right to organize based on sex for more trivial reasons.

@timeisnotaline

Absolutely not football if you mean big competitions. Football teams should be sex segregated of course. Not baby groups either, we will never get equality if you try and shut men out of parenting babies. Breastfeeding groups and anything specifically mother recovery related - basically anything where people are vulnerable for sex based reason, and others where women are vulnerable more generally as they are more at risk from men than the other way around eg prisons. Keep it to that I think.

To be clear - the point I was trying to make is that I can understand why some men dislike football becoming more family friendly, they want it to be a "safe space" for men to get drunk and swear without having to worry about offending women or children, and I think that is a reasonable desire to have.

That doesn't mean it's reasonable to give in to that desire. It is 2021 and women and children have just as much right to experience football live and in person, and not be forced to stay away by horrid bigoted chants from the crowd. But I would be quite happy for men to get together in a back room of a pub and watch football in a single sex space if that's what they want, just like I would support women who wanted to have a ladies day of getting together free of men to watch a day's coverage of wimbledon (To be clear - obvs some men prefer tennis and vice versa!)

I think it's ok for there to be single sex 'hobby' groups if that's what the members want. There are some where it's a no brainer - eg a male voice choir. Woman's book groups if they've found that men tend to dominate the discussion in mixed sex groups might be a very legitimate reason.

However they can be problematic if they embody some sort of political/social power. Men only golf clubs where business deals are struck, that sort of thing.

Men can be raped by women.

I guess what you determine a “typical football fan” is down to your own experience. The vast majority of football fans I know, yes are male, but are not the drunken louts you describe. I’ve also never once been made to feel unwelcome at a match/ supporters club/ pub.

To be clear - the point I was trying to make is that I can understand why some men dislike football becoming more family friendly, they want it to be a "safe space" for men to get drunk and swear without having to worry about offending women or children, and I think that is a reasonable desire to have.

I don't think is a reasonable desire at all and exceptionally sexist tbh football hasn't been like that round here for the last 25 years at least and I'm in central Scotland. There's plenty of women and kids and there are family stands if they are offended by the swearing.

Mother and baby groups are also sexist if Dads are excluded unless they are breastfeeding groups or the like as someone up thread said.

You can't keep men out of some perfectly acceptable spaces and then complain that women aren't allowed to join stuff.

Private friendship groups running activities as single sex is something different and they can be single sex if the members want. A womanhood/support/knitting group for friends would be acceptable. A female group that was primarily about female support and just happened to knit would also be ok to be single sex.
A knitting group that excluded men because the members secondarily saw it as a support group wouldn't be ok.

I once asked a Trans person if they would like a third space. The answer was a definite no.

With the single sex babies groups:

I think it would be unkind to make baby or toddler groups single sex, or indeed parent only.

The exception - in my opinion - is breastfeeding support groups. I hated that some women would bring husbands/partners to these. Some of those men would be discreet. Others would stare (last thing you want when already struggling to position baby), or sit so close they could hear every word of conversation with the consultant (and I wanted some degree of privacy to discuss my sore nipples and constant leaking).

Can we please use sex not gender as it muddys the waters so to speak. Mother and baby groups are primarily for the mother not the baby just to correct the poster above. Babies dont really need other babies to hang out with, however new mums who are struggling with breastfeeding, incontinence, birth trauma might want the support of other new mums.

*Anywhere that men meet to discuss business and do business and political deals needs to be mixed sex.

And how exactly do you police that? Are men literally not allowed to talk about their jobs or network in single sex groups?

I think it's ok for there to be single sex 'hobby' groups if that's what the members want. There are some where it's a no brainer - eg a male voice choir. Woman's book groups if they've found that men tend to dominate the discussion in mixed sex groups might be a very legitimate reason.

However they can be problematic if they embody some sort of political/social power. Men only golf clubs where business deals are struck, that sort of thing.

YY, agree with this.

Sorry Freidas i disagree. I strongly feel that in the fourth trimester period regardless of whether mum is breastfeeding or not, we should have a single sex mother and baby group. We know that males and females communicate very differently and men will often centre themselves/dominate in any situation. If men need a group they should set up their own or set up a parent group where everyone is welcome rather than invade the space of new mums.

I think you're mixing a lot of things up OP.

You mention things that encompass public, private, 3rd sector. Eg lesbian bars are private businesses, rape crisis different entirely.

Anyway, on the things you mention about the 'other' stuff-

'Mother and baby group - on the one hand obviously men should not be excluded from SAHP activities, but then again sometimes women might want to discuss things with other women which relate to motherhood not parenthood, and might not want a man there. I would have some sympathy for a SAH man who couldn't find a parent / baby group, but on the other hand I would have full sympathy for a woman who wanted a mother and baby group and who didn;t feel that it was her job to accommodate SAHP who are male.'

Round here I've not seen a mother and baby group. And my oldest is 15. It's toddler group. Post natal group... Well yes it was all women but I have no doubt at all that a dad would have been welcome.

'Football matches - OK, they're not and never have been single space, and obviously plenty of women love football and cannot / should not be barred... but on the other hand it seems to me legitimate for men to wish to enjoy a visceral, emotional, tribal event in the company of men and without women there. On the one hand football should be family friendly, on the other hand is there not an argument that men have a right to spaces where they can go and shout and scream and swear and let it all out without women and children around? Are men losing out by football become more family friendly? [To be clear I am in no way arguing for women and kids to be banned from football, just pointing out that there are some arguments that making it more family friend.'

Women play football... England team has been v successful. How does that fit in? Are men allowed to go? Are women not allowed to go?

I know loads of men who take their children to the football. What happens about that? Men are often keen to get their children really devoted to the team/ love the game etc.

The pubs round here when certain teams playing are rammed with men shouting swearing etc. I've never noticed any probs with women being there. Often with them, shouting and swearing as well.

In the past there were pubs that were not woman friendly. Not many. But I walked into a couple. Goes quiet everyone stares in hostile manner. You leave. That can happen with anyone who isn't.. whatever. Local/ wrong colour/ wrong sex/ wrong clothes etc etc etc. Men are quite good at policing their things if they want to.

'Book group - what is wrong with having a book group which is by and for women, with an idea that the books chosen might be more female-centric than a mixed book group, and that the women there are there to talk a bit about their lives and women's issues not just the books?'

These are usually casual small local things aren't they? They can do what they want. If female only... They could even. Read books that aren't about women's lives and then talk about woman things. I'm reading the Communist manifesto. What are you reading?

'Men's support groups - toxic masculinity, mental health - surely men's groups where men support other men with no hint of womanhood anywhere near is something that should be encouraged - arguably is being encouraged'

Don't understand. Round here there are groups for dads, groups for older men etc. Any groups about eg male specific cancers are for men. Does anyone mind that? No. (Sadly I'm not Helena Bonham carter! Fight club... ). Of course when volunteers running they are often women. Problem? If so. Need more men to step up and organise stuff.

I'm not sure what your point is tbh!

@Porcupineintherough

*Anywhere that men meet to discuss business and do business and political deals needs to be mixed sex.

And how exactly do you police that? Are men literally not allowed to talk about their jobs or network in single sex groups?

Yes of course they can! They do it constantly IME...

That point about corridors of power is historical. Women were not allowed to be eg MPs. Then when we were... Kept in dark etc because was 'boys club'. Business etc as well.

Good news is still happens plenty!

Mixed groups at all levels of parenting, even babies.

It’s the informal groups that involve power that scare me. But I think that is more money related. I don’t think that nowadays they need to exclude women, money is excluding enough on the whole.

Leisure groups, I find women or men only are a bit boring to be honest. And conservative. Although the women’s institute is supposed to be quite good now, but still, why not have a mixed institute. Don’t see why not.

Safeguarding is for the main issue in single sex groups or spaces.

but on the other hand it seems to me legitimate for men to wish to enjoy a visceral, emotional, tribal event in the company of men and without women there. On the one hand football should be family friendly, on the other hand is there not an argument that men have a right to spaces where they can go and shout and scream and swear and let it all out without women and children around?

No no and no! Specifically about football. You want to encourage men in their ‘visceral emotional tribalism’ and apparent ‘need to let it all out’? Do you remember what that means, and the links between tribalism, violence, and domestic violence? There are already warnings and reminders put out by police before every big game.

There are always women and children about, because we exist and have a right to! Believe it or not, there’s even some men who want to enjoy what’s supposed to be a game without the tribalism, and who are not so sexist that they want women and children barred from it, or so sexist that they view women and children as a group of separate species from themselves.

‘Women and children’ as a group together, separate from themselves.

If men are such natural wild animals with a need for no control or civility, then that needs to be acknowledged and men treated as the inferiors they are everywhere.

Anywhere that men meet to discuss business and do business and political deals needs to be mixed sex.

May be Women should start talking about these things when in groups instead of Babies & Makeup?? /sarcasm

I personally think both sexes need their own space - both for work and play.

I can't tell if that sarcastic or not!

Certainly women at industry events, client meetings where there are opportunities to chat informally, anything with opportunity to network don't talk about makeup IME! It would be relevant if you worked in cosmetics industry etc

The chat is pretty standard tbf male female no massive differences.

What I have noticed over many years is that there can be a very subtle Atmos. Or with some groups of men talking. That they would prefer not to have the women there. Well except the ones dishing out the food and drink obv!

I think it's fair to say that lots of men have a preference for dealing with men. And same goes for women. Just really subtle stuff. No one is being actively horrible iyswim.

The historical barring of women from where the deals were made, decisions. Was a major issue though. In my industry it's always been golf. Then women started playing golf more. Problem is. The men didn't really want them there, it was a boy's jolly.

Interestingly golf isn't nearly so much of a thing now for client entertainment.. never thought of that before!

My reasoning goes thus: is there a chance I'm going to get my tits out or knickers showing or talk about sex for some professional or sympathetic evaluation? then I need a single sex space. So rape crisis, breastfeeding group, clinical settings, some mum and baby groups and some hobby groups fall into this category.

Everything else imo should be mixed.

I'm guessing this is why some power broking deals now happen in strip clubs. Advertised as mixed sex but it just ends up being predominantly single sex by usage.

single sex by usage doesn't mean they are entitled to be single sex...

This is “feminism” now is it? Following on from the idea that all women need to be is sexy and sex-obsessed at all times, now ‘womens rights’ means that we should enable men to be as violent and emotionally unregulated as they like, encourage them to socialise only together with the important people Undisturbed by the presence of airheaded women with their silly concerns, not to mention the children that women ought to be dealing with alone, and by-the-by accept the corruption of back-room dealing because those in power know best?

What the hell has happened to this country? You don’t even seem to remember what freedom means.

@Reduceddutiesboredom

Men can be raped by women.

I guess what you determine a “typical football fan” is down to your own experience. The vast majority of football fans I know, yes are male, but are not the drunken louts you describe. I’ve also never once been made to feel unwelcome at a match/ supporters club/ pub.

I note that I said "A typical football supporter is a man who wants to get drunk and sing and swear and have some "man time"."

I think that is reasonable. I might be wrong. I did say "drunk" not "drunken louts". I did say "swear" not "swear so much that people like Reduceddutiesboredom would feel unwelcome".

Either way I am damn near certain that part of the appeal of going to the football for many men is that it is an excuse to be a bit boisterous in a male-dominated environment, and whilst the vast majority are glad the days of hooliganism are over, and that families feel welcome, they wouldn't want it to become a sanitised affair like soccer in the US which is much more geared up for women and kids.

I stand by my football comments -

(1) Obviously football matches should be available for all to attend
(2) Men who want to sing and be a bit boisterous (NOT VIOLENT) should be explicitly catered for, just like women and children should be specifically catered for.
(4) If a group of men wanted to watch a game in an all male environment in the back room of a pub I would understand.