Three types of "single sex" spaces

[LaetitiaASD]

I was thinking about this over the weekend... it seems to me that there are three types of single sex spaces.

The first are places like public toilets, lesbian bars and rape crisis centres which are (or should be) single sex for exceptionally good reasons of safety, comfort and privacy.

The second are (were?) places like golf clubs and private members clubs - men only spaces where important decisions were made and deals happened. They have, in the main I think, been opened up to women, rightfully, because you can't have sexual equality if women can't access all of the places where power resides.

But what of the third type? It strikes me that there are other places that are much less clear cut, but that there are strong arguments for other single sex spaces despite the need being much much smaller than the need for single space refuges and toilets.

Mother and baby group - on the one hand obviously men should not be excluded from SAHP activities, but then again sometimes women might want to discuss things with other women which relate to motherhood not parenthood, and might not want a man there. I would have some sympathy for a SAH man who couldn't find a parent / baby group, but on the other hand I would have full sympathy for a woman who wanted a mother and baby group and who didn;t feel that it was her job to accommodate SAHP who are male.

Football matches - OK, they're not and never have been single space, and obviously plenty of women love football and cannot / should not be barred... but on the other hand it seems to me legitimate for men to wish to enjoy a visceral, emotional, tribal event in the company of men and without women there. On the one hand football should be family friendly, on the other hand is there not an argument that men have a right to spaces where they can go and shout and scream and swear and let it all out without women and children around? Are men losing out by football become more family friendly? [To be clear I am in no way arguing for women and kids to be banned from football, just pointing out that there are some arguments that making it more family friend.

Book group - what is wrong with having a book group which is by and for women, with an idea that the books chosen might be more female-centric than a mixed book group, and that the women there are there to talk a bit about their lives and women's issues not just the books?

Men's support groups - toxic masculinity, mental health - surely men's groups where men support other men with no hint of womanhood anywhere near is something that should be encouraged - arguably is being encouraged.

I don't know what I'm trying to say or ask... I suppose...

Does everyone agree that certain spaces need to be single sex, and some categorically need to be open to both sexes to ensure women are not excluded from power?

What does everyone think about the "need" for "non-essential single sex spaces?" Is there an argument that in the trans / GC "debate" the focus is on essential single sex spaces, and that as a result the need to protect the less essential ones is being completely forgotten?

@ErrolTheDragon

I think it's ok for there to be single sex 'hobby' groups if that's what the members want. There are some where it's a no brainer - eg a male voice choir. Woman's book groups if they've found that men tend to dominate the discussion in mixed sex groups might be a very legitimate reason.

However they can be problematic if they embody some sort of political/social power. Men only golf clubs where business deals are struck, that sort of thing.

That's my point. My point is that I think that there is a risk of losing single sex hobby groups because they get caught up in the whole "it's no good for women if deals are being done at an all men golf club" thing. These hobby groups can be legitimately single sex for all sorts of reasons, and they should be fought for alongside fighting for single sex toilets and lesbian dating apps, but obviously the hobby groups are not the priority.

There is a massive difference between the women of Elmbridge setting up a book club for women only, and the Directors of two massive listed companies doing business in a club house that the women directors aren't allowed into.

@DeclineandFall

To be clear - the point I was trying to make is that I can understand why some men dislike football becoming more family friendly, they want it to be a "safe space" for men to get drunk and swear without having to worry about offending women or children, and I think that is a reasonable desire to have.

I don't think is a reasonable desire at all and exceptionally sexist tbh football hasn't been like that round here for the last 25 years at least and I'm in central Scotland. There's plenty of women and kids and there are family stands if they are offended by the swearing.

Mother and baby groups are also sexist if Dads are excluded unless they are breastfeeding groups or the like as someone up thread said.

You can't keep men out of some perfectly acceptable spaces and then complain that women aren't allowed to join stuff.

Private friendship groups running activities as single sex is something different and they can be single sex if the members want. A womanhood/support/knitting group for friends would be acceptable. A female group that was primarily about female support and just happened to knit would also be ok to be single sex.
A knitting group that excluded men because the members secondarily saw it as a support group wouldn't be ok.

Football - on the one hand you say I am unreasonable, then on the other you say that effectively it happens already because there is a safe space for women and children who don't like the more male dominated parts of the ground.

You don;t think that it is at all reasonable of men to say "I would like to take a break from women and children and watch football in an all male environment and let me hair down". I disagree completely.

I also disagree with regards mother and baby. I see no problem with women saying that they want a women only safe space for mother and baby issues, and women only chat too. Men can set up dad and baby groups or parent and baby groups. Other women can set up parent and baby groups.

I think my point is that neither men and women should be banned from shopping centres or football grounds or supermarkets, but single sex clubs are fine, UNLESS, they are being used to wield power. A women's book club is fine, unless all the women are company directors doing big deals behind the men's back, at which point it should be treated like an all-male golf club and forced to open up.

@Mrsorganmorgan

I once asked a Trans person if they would like a third space. The answer was a definite no.

Well that's fine so long as they're happy to use the one for their biological sex. No-one should be forced out of the appropriate single sex spaces for them in order to use third spaces.

@Porcupineintherough

*Anywhere that men meet to discuss business and do business and political deals needs to be mixed sex.

And how exactly do you police that? Are men literally not allowed to talk about their jobs or network in single sex groups?

I think what you do is wait for a problem to be identified and then challenge it.

eg women felt relatively powerless due to not being able to talk business on the golf club, therefore force the golf club to accespt women.

If a dungeons and dragons tuesday evening club just so happens to consist of four men who are all directors of massive listed companies, then maybe women who see deals being done behind their backs need to complain. Obviously this is hard if the women aren;t aware of the men only club.

Talking about your job or networking is a completely different thing to politicians or business people making big decision in all male spaces.

@CheeseMmmm

I think you're mixing a lot of things up OP.

You mention things that encompass public, private, 3rd sector. Eg lesbian bars are private businesses, rape crisis different entirely.

Anyway, on the things you mention about the 'other' stuff-

'Mother and baby group - on the one hand obviously men should not be excluded from SAHP activities, but then again sometimes women might want to discuss things with other women which relate to motherhood not parenthood, and might not want a man there. I would have some sympathy for a SAH man who couldn't find a parent / baby group, but on the other hand I would have full sympathy for a woman who wanted a mother and baby group and who didn;t feel that it was her job to accommodate SAHP who are male.'

Round here I've not seen a mother and baby group. And my oldest is 15. It's toddler group. Post natal group... Well yes it was all women but I have no doubt at all that a dad would have been welcome.

'Football matches - OK, they're not and never have been single space, and obviously plenty of women love football and cannot / should not be barred... but on the other hand it seems to me legitimate for men to wish to enjoy a visceral, emotional, tribal event in the company of men and without women there. On the one hand football should be family friendly, on the other hand is there not an argument that men have a right to spaces where they can go and shout and scream and swear and let it all out without women and children around? Are men losing out by football become more family friendly? [To be clear I am in no way arguing for women and kids to be banned from football, just pointing out that there are some arguments that making it more family friend.'

Women play football... England team has been v successful. How does that fit in? Are men allowed to go? Are women not allowed to go?

I know loads of men who take their children to the football. What happens about that? Men are often keen to get their children really devoted to the team/ love the game etc.

The pubs round here when certain teams playing are rammed with men shouting swearing etc. I've never noticed any probs with women being there. Often with them, shouting and swearing as well.

In the past there were pubs that were not woman friendly. Not many. But I walked into a couple. Goes quiet everyone stares in hostile manner. You leave. That can happen with anyone who isn't.. whatever. Local/ wrong colour/ wrong sex/ wrong clothes etc etc etc. Men are quite good at policing their things if they want to.

'Book group - what is wrong with having a book group which is by and for women, with an idea that the books chosen might be more female-centric than a mixed book group, and that the women there are there to talk a bit about their lives and women's issues not just the books?'

These are usually casual small local things aren't they? They can do what they want. If female only... They could even. Read books that aren't about women's lives and then talk about woman things. I'm reading the Communist manifesto. What are you reading?

'Men's support groups - toxic masculinity, mental health - surely men's groups where men support other men with no hint of womanhood anywhere near is something that should be encouraged - arguably is being encouraged'

Don't understand. Round here there are groups for dads, groups for older men etc. Any groups about eg male specific cancers are for men. Does anyone mind that? No. (Sadly I'm not Helena Bonham carter! Fight club... ). Of course when volunteers running they are often women. Problem? If so. Need more men to step up and organise stuff.

I'm not sure what your point is tbh!

I clearly said that you'd never make football matches single sex so I don't get why keep talking like I did.

I never said we need men only pubs.

I just said that I personally understand, and believe it to be acceptable, if a group of men were to wish to get together to watch football and let it all out without women and children there.

"The pubs round here when certain teams playing are rammed with men shouting swearing etc. I've never noticed any probs with women being there. Often with them, shouting and swearing as well. "

I am not saying you're wrong but I note that trans women say that about using the women's toilets. I am categorically NOT saying that I would make any pubs men only to keep you out, but it does seem to me possible that those men are toning down the swearing because you are there and would be more comfortable if the space were single sex. If the pub has a back room and a group of men wish to hire it and exclude women I have no problem - so long as its not a place where power resides.

@NCBlossom

Mixed groups at all levels of parenting, even babies.

It’s the informal groups that involve power that scare me. But I think that is more money related. I don’t think that nowadays they need to exclude women, money is excluding enough on the whole.

Leisure groups, I find women or men only are a bit boring to be honest. And conservative. Although the women’s institute is supposed to be quite good now, but still, why not have a mixed institute. Don’t see why not.

Safeguarding is for the main issue in single sex groups or spaces.

No-one is going to tell you that you have to attend single sex groups - the point is that they should - IMO - be there as options if the demand is there.

Googled - The WI movement began at Stoney Creek, Ontario in Canada in 1897 when Adelaide Hoodless addressed a meeting for the wives of members of the Farmers' Institute.

So, it seems like the entire point of the WI was that it was a women only version of the men-ony farming club that the husbands had.

I have no problem with there being an MI, I and WI!

@PickUpAPepper

but on the other hand it seems to me legitimate for men to wish to enjoy a visceral, emotional, tribal event in the company of men and without women there. On the one hand football should be family friendly, on the other hand is there not an argument that men have a right to spaces where they can go and shout and scream and swear and let it all out without women and children around?

No no and no! Specifically about football. You want to encourage men in their ‘visceral emotional tribalism’ and apparent ‘need to let it all out’? Do you remember what that means, and the links between tribalism, violence, and domestic violence? There are already warnings and reminders put out by police before every big game.

There are always women and children about, because we exist and have a right to! Believe it or not, there’s even some men who want to enjoy what’s supposed to be a game without the tribalism, and who are not so sexist that they want women and children barred from it, or so sexist that they view women and children as a group of separate species from themselves.

Good point.

Not saying you are wrong, but by that logic surely there is an argument that all sports that men care about should be discouraged? If football is tribal and tribalism leads to domestic violence, then surely we should be discouraging both the tribalism and the football that causes it?

@PickUpAPepper

This is “feminism” now is it? Following on from the idea that all women need to be is sexy and sex-obsessed at all times, now ‘womens rights’ means that we should enable men to be as violent and emotionally unregulated as they like, encourage them to socialise only together with the important people Undisturbed by the presence of airheaded women with their silly concerns, not to mention the children that women ought to be dealing with alone, and by-the-by accept the corruption of back-room dealing because those in power know best?

What the hell has happened to this country? You don’t even seem to remember what freedom means.

Is that what you take from my post?

You think that because I think that some men might like some time in some particular circumstances to be all sweary and "manly" away from women, that I think women's rights mean enabling men to be violent.

Wowzers. You misinterpret me badly!

TLDR -

IMHO everyone with any sense believes that most spaces should be mixed, and definitely anywhere that power resides. They also believe in single sex spaces in certain circumstances (toilets, changing rooms etc).

The point of this thread was to discuss the types of activity that falls between - activities where single sex space is categorically not NEEDED in the way that a woman-only rape crisis centre is absolutely essential, but where the people involved might find it very valuable AND no-one is really missing out by being excluded. Places where the costs of single sex rights are trivial compared to the benefits.

You think the men in a pub with loads of blokes in to watch the match tone down the swearing if a woman is there?

You're not from round here are you

Problems.

Women can and do swear like troopers. Just FYI.

My local is managed by a woman. Tricky. Loads of pubs have female bar staff/ managers / landlords or are run by couples. Have you thought this plan through

I'm confused in what way women's only bogs changing etc is equivalent to watching a football match.

Men don't want women in their bogs either btw. Or with them when they're taking their clothes off. How are you factoring that in?

Have you asked a lot of men whether they would prefer men only when football was on in the pub? Just out of interest.

What about rugby, cricket, etc?

The Mens Shed movement is a really interesting example of a space set up relatively recently for people of one sex - the motivation behind it is that men (especially older) can be quite lonely and bringing them together to do practical activities is very therapeutic for them. There are now Womens Sheds as well - often using the same space at different times - but I get a sense that they're not as successful, presumably because there are other ways for women to meet and do activities? No-one seems to object to them being single-sex spaces, as far as I'm aware?

Not only are ‘men’s sheds’ not objected to, but they regularly receive charity funding.

Which I think is totally fine. It’s a recognition that there is a need there, many older men are lonely and it’s bad for their health, and men’s sheds are a partial solution to this. Why wouldn’t I as a woman support that?

True. I do like the idea of men's sheds... and I'd like to think men are entitled to that type of private space. I don't want to go. I just like that it exists.

I don't know any equivalent for women for which I like the thought of as much...

Does everyone agree that certain spaces need to be single sex, and some categorically need to be open to both sexes to ensure women are not excluded from power? - yes, and yes

What does everyone think about the "need" for "non-essential single sex spaces?" Is there an argument that in the trans / GC "debate" the focus is on essential single sex spaces, and that as a result the need to protect the less essential ones is being completely forgotten?
I think what we need to maintain is not so much the non essential single sex spaces themselves, but the right to have them if a group of people - a women's book group, or a male or female victim support group or something sex based on religious grounds - feel the need for them. We should be able to keep single sex groups single sex if that's what those groups desire.
I personally like the idea of having a SAHD in an antenatal group but can understand why some might want it to be women only. I think non essential single sex groups tend to be composed of like minded people; Being all male or all female can be a fundamental part of what you all have in common.

@CheeseMmmm

You think the men in a pub with loads of blokes in to watch the match tone down the swearing if a woman is there?

You're not from round here are you

Problems.

Women can and do swear like troopers. Just FYI.

My local is managed by a woman. Tricky. Loads of pubs have female bar staff/ managers / landlords or are run by couples. Have you thought this plan through

I'm confused in what way women's only bogs changing etc is equivalent to watching a football match.

Men don't want women in their bogs either btw. Or with them when they're taking their clothes off. How are you factoring that in?

Jesus H, do people even read and think?

Obviously plenty of women swear like troopers.

Obviously most men are happy to swear in front of women in the pub.

Neither of these things alter my opinion - which I believe is close to FACT - that plenty of men would like to be able to spend some time in an all male environment where they can swear more and / or not feel a touch bad about swearing in front of women.

I categorically did not say bogs are like watching a football match. Bogs are one "essential" category, whereas men choosing to watch football in a single sex environment is completely unimportant in comparison, but nevertheless the sort of thing that should be a right, IMHO. The right for men to hire a pub back room and watch football without women if they want. And if they don;t want they don;t have to!

I think it would be possible to have a back room single sex apart from staff bringing beer. Or the men could leave the single sex room to buy beer and bring it back. I think it can be worked out, lol!

@CheeseMmmm

Have you asked a lot of men whether they would prefer men only when football was on in the pub? Just out of interest.

Do you believe that any men, ever, want to do "lads things"?

Do you agree that football is a "lads thing" (as well as a family thing and a woman's thing)?

Do you honestly need me to prove to you that sometime men like drinking and not having women around?

@Snailhaterz2

The Mens Shed movement is a really interesting example of a space set up relatively recently for people of one sex - the motivation behind it is that men (especially older) can be quite lonely and bringing them together to do practical activities is very therapeutic for them. There are now Womens Sheds as well - often using the same space at different times - but I get a sense that they're not as successful, presumably because there are other ways for women to meet and do activities? No-one seems to object to them being single-sex spaces, as far as I'm aware?

Perfect example of the sort of relatively trivial single sex space that can and should exist, proving my point that single sex spaces are not just about nudity and bodily functions.

Thanks.

@confusednotcom

Does everyone agree that certain spaces need to be single sex, and some categorically need to be open to both sexes to ensure women are not excluded from power? - yes, and yes

What does everyone think about the "need" for "non-essential single sex spaces?" Is there an argument that in the trans / GC "debate" the focus is on essential single sex spaces, and that as a result the need to protect the less essential ones is being completely forgotten?
I think what we need to maintain is not so much the non essential single sex spaces themselves, but the right to have them if a group of people - a women's book group, or a male or female victim support group or something sex based on religious grounds - feel the need for them. We should be able to keep single sex groups single sex if that's what those groups desire.
I personally like the idea of having a SAHD in an antenatal group but can understand why some might want it to be women only. I think non essential single sex groups tend to be composed of like minded people; Being all male or all female can be a fundamental part of what you all have in common.

Thanks!

First of all the whole ‘women and children’ nonsense has to stop. Why is it the women who are presumed to be stuck with the children? I know we’re socialised to care more blah2 or whatever but we must normalise MEN also being the ones with children.

Secondly I don’t think it’s always about single sex spaces but the atmosphere. I like swearing and being blunt too, so much so that dudes on lads night out talk about women in front of me 😇 don’t even realise I’m a woman. Also loads of women like going to gay bars - with their gay friends. Making these places gay men only would really reduce the numbers because it’s not like all gay men have gay friends to go with.

Fair enough to have spaces that are for people of a particular type - the type being more to one sex. But why officially segregate more things than necessary?

@Flapjak

Can we please use sex not gender as it muddys the waters so to speak. Mother and baby groups are primarily for the mother not the baby just to correct the poster above. Babies dont really need other babies to hang out with, however new mums who are struggling with breastfeeding, incontinence, birth trauma might want the support of other new mums.

Absolutely agree that these single sex groups need to exist. They should probably be set up or very clearly explained as a post-partum/post-birth support group.
'Mother and baby group' could mean that, or it could be an old fashioned way of referring to a group with a wider parenting focus than the body during and after birth (as it was in my backwater small town).
I think it's quite important that men parenting babies and young children is seen as normal I also think that it's important for men to realise how significantly birth affects our bodies.

@Porcupineintherough

*Anywhere that men meet to discuss business and do business and political deals needs to be mixed sex.

And how exactly do you police that? Are men literally not allowed to talk about their jobs or network in single sex groups?

Boards (of directors) already have quotas for women. It is only right that women are at the table when important decisions that affect them and others are made.

The issue is, many companies include males in their definition of ‘women’.

Hmmmm interesting.

What is it about mother and baby groups that make them single sex exclusive? If it's talking about birth etc then does that mean mothers who have adopted, or mothers in lesbian relationships who are not the carrying parent can't come too?

Most of my mother and baby groups eventually changed to just baby groups.
One of them though, it became a very safe space to discuss intimate issues. That one was just a group but you kind of knew men were not invited. They'd have left if they turned up... Either because of awkward silences or awkward topics. And any man who didn't leave would have broken up the group as that would have been creepy.