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Feminism: chat

CPS consultation: "Help us improve how we explain our work on rape and serious sexual assault"

65 replies

HeadPain · 29/10/2021 13:04

"Help us improve how we explain our work on rape and serious sexual assault"

mobile.twitter.com/CPSUK/status/1453659687480696834

"We’re committed to improving the information we provide to victims about the way we charge and prosecute rape and serious sexual assault.

Today we’ve launched a step-by-step guide to take victims and their supporters through the trial process.

Take a look www.cps.gov.uk/rasso-victims-guide "

"We're determined to drive up the number of cases going to court so that more victims see justice.

We’d like your feedback on our new guide for victims of rape and serious sexual assault, to make sure we’re getting it right.

Have your say - www.cps.gov.uk/rasso-feedback "

Hmmm...

OP posts:
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Reptar · 29/10/2021 13:09
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NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 01:10

Will have a look. Currently gobsmacked.

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NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 01:12

Second reply on Twitter...

'At this stage, how do you know who the “victim” is?
(complainant or defendant)

I presume you’re also working on or have already produced a procedure to assist defendants &their families who’ve been falsely accused. All of whom are entitled to justice
#falseallegationsindustry'

Never heard the phrase false allegation industry before. Doesn't sound good...

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NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 01:19
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NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 01:20

Only thing I could find referencing the phrase ^.

Twitter CPS all but about two comments are... Most rape accusations are false etc. Crikey. Eye opening.

mobile.twitter.com/cpsuk/status/1453659687480696834

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NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 01:25

On the advice stuff.

Surely problem is that hardly any cases get anywhere near court? That's s police and CPS etc problem. If not working on that, this blurb seems pointless.

It's too long by far. By far by far. Key points please. Reading essays is time consuming. Hard to miss key points. Loads of people don't have good literacy etc.

I mean aren't there more pressing things to spend their time and money on?

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Inneedofcoffeeandchocolate · 30/10/2021 02:23

"We're determined to drive up the number of cases going to court so that more victims see justice.

We’d like your feedback on our new guide for victims of rape and serious sexual assault, to make sure we’re getting it right."

So are they linking victims not understanding the court process and the low number of cases taken to court? I wasn't aware that was the problem?

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NumberTheory · 30/10/2021 14:25

@Inneedofcoffeeandchocolate

"We're determined to drive up the number of cases going to court so that more victims see justice.

We’d like your feedback on our new guide for victims of rape and serious sexual assault, to make sure we’re getting it right."

So are they linking victims not understanding the court process and the low number of cases taken to court? I wasn't aware that was the problem?

Women retracting is certainly an issue. That may, in part, be down to a lack of confidence in the prosecutorial process. Fear that the offender will get access to information about them, fear about how they will be treated in court, etc.
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Felix125 · 30/10/2021 18:10

Its a difficult one - obviously we want a higher prosecution rate, but I don't think its a easy goal to achieve.

From a police point of view - the evidence is gathered. So the victim will seen and her/his initial account given. If he/she is willing they will go through a medical examination where further evidence is gained. Also SOCO will attend the scene if we think evidence can be gathered from it. Also witness statements, CCTV etc etc

The suspect is also arrested and forensics samples obtained from them. An interview is done.

All this is then given to CPS who determine if there is a likelihood of a prosecution based on the evidence.

Now, genuine question - is there any part of that process which people want to change?

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Inneedofcoffeeandchocolate · 30/10/2021 20:37

This consultation, as I understand it, is about the information/guidance provided rather than whether what they are doing is right. I get that some women will not want to follow through the prosecution. But I expect the main problem is the process itself rather than information about the process. (And I also don't think women retracting statements is the biggest factor - definitely not on a simplistic level - in accounting for the huge difference between assaults and prosecution.)

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NiceGerbil · 30/10/2021 21:26

Felix- in theory. In practice. Very often no way that's what happens.

Coffee- same really.

The root problems are massive. The information given is... Pointless while the police etc behave as they do.

What would help? Genuine push from paymasters (govt) through all forces. To take sex offences seriously. At all levels.

At the moment. Reporting sex offences to police is essentially pointless esp where I live. Even a govt investigation the baroness who ran it said rape is effectively decriminalised.

The advice is of fuck all worth given the current situation.

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NumberTheory · 31/10/2021 00:27

@Inneedofcoffeeandchocolate

This consultation, as I understand it, is about the information/guidance provided rather than whether what they are doing is right. I get that some women will not want to follow through the prosecution. But I expect the main problem is the process itself rather than information about the process. (And I also don't think women retracting statements is the biggest factor - definitely not on a simplistic level - in accounting for the huge difference between assaults and prosecution.)

I certainly didn't say or mean to imply that women retracting was the biggest factor. Merely that it was a legitimate concern for CPS.

I do, though, agree that communication of CPS's process is not going to be a revolution. It's the process itself throughout the CJS from the police to probation services, not the way it's communicated that's problematic. While looking at communication is not a bad thing, it's a band aid on a deep wound and won't shift numbers to any real extent.
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NumberTheory · 31/10/2021 00:36

@Felix125

Its a difficult one - obviously we want a higher prosecution rate, but I don't think its a easy goal to achieve.

From a police point of view - the evidence is gathered. So the victim will seen and her/his initial account given. If he/she is willing they will go through a medical examination where further evidence is gained. Also SOCO will attend the scene if we think evidence can be gathered from it. Also witness statements, CCTV etc etc

The suspect is also arrested and forensics samples obtained from them. An interview is done.

All this is then given to CPS who determine if there is a likelihood of a prosecution based on the evidence.

Now, genuine question - is there any part of that process which people want to change?

You're missing out the bit where they don't automatically gather evidence. Where women are routinely judged as responsible for their treatment. Where the accused is bailed for months at a time awaiting a decision from CPS but without effective conditions to protect the witness. There's also the bit of the process where police have taken the victim's phone and required her to give them permission to trawl through it before they'll agree to investigate. In some cases leaving the victim with no way to call for help when the rapist returns and attacks her again. Would be good if that bit of the process had never existed and been used by some officers to deter women from reporting. There's also the bit where CPS "agree the facts" of the case with the defence when there is an early guilty plea (often to a lesser charge) and then the court sentences on the basis of those facts which often don't reflect the victim's experience well. Those are bits of the process that have existed and might need communicating better - either communicating that they have changed or why they happen that way.

Another change I'd like to see is for the police and CPS to stop treating sexual assaults as one offs and start treating them as serial crimes by default. So as well as interviewing the accused (if they have an accused) police would proactively look for other victims and CPS would put together cases with multiple victims.

Those are just a few of the processes I'd like to see changed or better explained to victims.
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Becca19962014 · 31/10/2021 00:49

Reality doesn’t really match what is implied to people by the media and or tv (where many will take their lead) or for that matter police websites.

Personally the process was horrific for me and compounded the trauma.

Far too many, and I’ve recently had experience of this, think that report equals prosecution/jail time equals telling the truth, otherwise fantasist/liar. That was a conversation with a GP!

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Felix125 · 31/10/2021 01:24

Nicegerbil
Which police forces don't practice that?

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Felix125 · 31/10/2021 01:55

Number Theory - to answer some of the points - and I'm not trying to be annoying or argumentative here, just trying to explain things from a police point of view.

When don't police automatically gather evidence? and when are the victims routinely judged as being responsible? Is this a specific police force in particular?

Bail conditions can only be applied for a specific length of time and not for the duration of the investigation. Usually awaiting the results of forensics or phone downloads can take a long time. Police bail conditions don't really protect the victim in any case as there is nothing we can do with the suspect if police bail is breached and the primary offence is not at the point of charge (ie awaiting a CPS decision). It also runs down the original PACE custody clock if they are arrested for breaching police bail. You can also arrest for witness intimidation in any case which will be stand alone offence. Police bail is a bit of a 'toothless tiger' in my opinion.

The only way to give full protection to the victim during the investigation would be to remand the suspect in custody pre-charge. But I don't think the current law allows for this to happen.

Going through phone records belonging to the victim can occur if its relevant to the case. If this has been raised as part of the inquiry, then its up to the police to investigate this surly. Phones can also be given to the victims either by police or partner agencies as they are now inexpensive. Safeguarding the victim plays a big part of the police initial contact in. We now have technology which can download a phone's text messages within 30 minutes. So we can take a victims phone, download it and give them it straight back; if its simple text messages that are required.

The facts of the case which the CPS/deference agree to in early guilty pleas will include the victims experience. This will be part of the victim's statement and fully disposable to the court during this process. The victim can also add to the statement as the enquiry proceeds - so for example if the victim has suffered a massive mental breakdown months after the rape, this can be added to that victim's statement.

I agree, we should always look for multiple victims - but we need them to come forward. The other way of doing it is to publicise the arrest and ask for other victims to come forward. But then you are effectively assuming the suspect is guilty before charge.

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NiceGerbil · 31/10/2021 01:33

You read the news surely Felix? It sounds like you have knowledge in this area so guess you take an interest?

Even if not for yonks then at least last few years?

You see the reporting on the periodic reports from various govt groups, news investigations, charities etc?

I'm assuming you do if not then it makes the answer a bit more involved.

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NumberTheory · 31/10/2021 03:29

@Felix125

Number Theory - to answer some of the points - and I'm not trying to be annoying or argumentative here, just trying to explain things from a police point of view.

When don't police automatically gather evidence? and when are the victims routinely judged as being responsible? Is this a specific police force in particular?

Bail conditions can only be applied for a specific length of time and not for the duration of the investigation. Usually awaiting the results of forensics or phone downloads can take a long time. Police bail conditions don't really protect the victim in any case as there is nothing we can do with the suspect if police bail is breached and the primary offence is not at the point of charge (ie awaiting a CPS decision). It also runs down the original PACE custody clock if they are arrested for breaching police bail. You can also arrest for witness intimidation in any case which will be stand alone offence. Police bail is a bit of a 'toothless tiger' in my opinion.

The only way to give full protection to the victim during the investigation would be to remand the suspect in custody pre-charge. But I don't think the current law allows for this to happen.

Going through phone records belonging to the victim can occur if its relevant to the case. If this has been raised as part of the inquiry, then its up to the police to investigate this surly. Phones can also be given to the victims either by police or partner agencies as they are now inexpensive. Safeguarding the victim plays a big part of the police initial contact in. We now have technology which can download a phone's text messages within 30 minutes. So we can take a victims phone, download it and give them it straight back; if its simple text messages that are required.

The facts of the case which the CPS/deference agree to in early guilty pleas will include the victims experience. This will be part of the victim's statement and fully disposable to the court during this process. The victim can also add to the statement as the enquiry proceeds - so for example if the victim has suffered a massive mental breakdown months after the rape, this can be added to that victim's statement.

I agree, we should always look for multiple victims - but we need them to come forward. The other way of doing it is to publicise the arrest and ask for other victims to come forward. But then you are effectively assuming the suspect is guilty before charge.

Police don’t automatically gather evidence when the officer taking the complaint doesn’t recognize it as rape (as is too frequently the case when women are drunk, mentally ill or unclear on what happened). Also fairly common when the victim is a sex worker or a vulnerable teenage girl who was groomed or coerced (as was evident with the Rotherham cases). Quite a few police forces have fairly recently been taken to task for not even recording a fair number of sex crimes reported to them, let alone investigating them. Obviously some officers are better than others, but it is a criticism that comes up too often from women’s groups who support rape victims and in cases that reach the public eye because something worse ends up happening (and it obviously isn’t only happening then).

On the bail conditions - as I said in other posts, it’s the process much more than it is communication. That bail conditions can’t really protect victims and victims feel vulnerable is a major reason why victims of acquaintance or intimate partner rape don’t feel safe reporting.

Some police forces were routinely taking victims phones and refusing to investigate without permission to search them. That it took a newspaper to raise public outrage before the forces involved backed down and retreated to requesting records only when necessary is emblematic of the criminal justice systems attitudes to victims of sexual assault. And even after that, HMCPSI found that over a third of requests by CPS for phone or medical records were not proportionate..

For guilty pleas I’m not talking about the impact on the victim being disregarded. I’m talking about what the prosecution and defense lawyers agree to as what the offender did for the purposes of the court. Like pleading guilty to sexual assault instead of rape, or to rape but without pre-meditated planning, etc. The judge takes the agreed summary as the “truth” and bases their sentencing on that, not the victim’s account or any other evidence that might be available. When these summaries get written into the judge’s ruling victims often feel disbelieved and their experience minimised. (If you’re a police officer as your response implies, you surely know this is how it works. What’s with the disingenuousness?)

There are plenty of ways for looking for other victims that don’t include a broadcast announcing the suspects name to the nation (which would obviously be ineffective if it was done every time anyway) but it would require significant resources to go through a suspect’s contacts and messages or to make enquiries of their friends, family and acquaintances, to track where they’ve been and make enquiries at venues they’ve attended that are similar to the ones where they met the known victim. Plenty there that could be done. But rape, unless it gets in the news, does not attract significant resources for investigation, despite being a crime that ruins millions of women’s lives currently, is effectively decriminalized
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Inneedofcoffeeandchocolate · 31/10/2021 07:19

Some really good posts. @Felix125 I wonder if you have read any of the recent reviews? One think that stuck in my head is the Victims Commissioner referred to police teams acting as "complaint credibility units" rather than rape investigation.

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Felix125 · 01/11/2021 06:03

Nicegerbil
You have to demonstrate the trend as apposed to individual incidents to show that 'the police' fail victims in this manner.

Have there been mistakes - of course there has.
Are they corrupt individuals - of course they are

But you have to show that the majority of victims are let down at the point of contact by police - which I don't think they are.

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Felix125 · 01/11/2021 06:28

NumberTheory
Recognition of a sex crime isn't really the issue i don't think. Most reports to police are passed through call takers, call handlers, dispatch management and finally the dispatcher themselves before the call gets passed to a cop - so they are 'filters' in place which will identify sex crimes and flag them as a priority. You mention the Rotherham case and yes, mistakes have been made in the past - but I don't think that this is the general trend given the amount of 'sex crimes' reported to police.

The sex crimes which are not investigated - you have to take into account that there may be strong evidence from the start to show it hasn't happened. If that is the case would you not expect the police to move onto the next case quickly.

If its a domestic rape - we can put a DVPN in place - this effectively ejects the partner from the home if required despite who the home owner is. Again we also have access to 'safe houses' for victims which we have used quite frequently to protect victims and their families.

Victim's phones may need to be downloaded if we think there is evidence on it. The police/CPS were slated in a case where there was evidence on the victims phone which was not disclosed to the court and exonerated the accused. CPS have had a history of wanting evidence 'just in case its needed' hence why they request phone records & medical records in case it is brought up by the defence. CPS are trying not to get caught out at court - but this will be voluntary by the victim to disclose this - ie we can't force phone records or medical records from a victim without a court order as far as i'm aware.

The agreed summary includes the victim's account and the impact on them. This forms part of the decision made by the judge/court on accepting a guilty plea or not. Any plea bargain on the day will also be discussed with the victim. So if the suspect is happy to plead to sexual assault as apposed to rape - this will be discussed with the victim to see if its acceptable. Sometimes the victim is happy with that - and we have to accept the victims decision even if we believe there was enough to prove the rape offence.

Intelligence checks are done on the suspect to see where they have been, who they have contact with. Automatic checks are done at the point of them reaching custody with their employers (for example if they work with children or vulnerable people). If we find that they have been to a venue (nightclub for example) we won't be able to ask all the people that have been there if they have had any contact with the suspect. If any incidents have happened, we have to allow the victim to come forward or the club to report it. Otherwise we will be chasing people for incidents which just haven't happened. And it just means that the next crime report can't be investigated.

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NumberTheory · 01/11/2021 18:48

The agreed summary includes the victim's account and the impact on them. This forms part of the decision made by the judge/court on accepting a guilty plea or not. Any plea bargain on the day will also be discussed with the victim. So if the suspect is happy to plead to sexual assault as apposed to rape - this will be discussed with the victim to see if its acceptable. Sometimes the victim is happy with that - and we have to accept the victims decision even if we believe there was enough to prove the rape offence.

Are you actually police officer? This is at best disingenuous, at worst ignorant. And I'm not sure which is worse.

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NumberTheory · 01/11/2021 19:09

^^Without tone of voice that's contradictory, but I'm sure you get the point.

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Felix125 · 01/11/2021 19:34

NumberTheory

"...Are you actually police officer? This is at best disingenuous, at worst ignorant. And I'm not sure which is worse..."

Sorry, I might be missing something (its been a long day) but I'm not sure what you mean

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Inneedofcoffeeandchocolate · 01/11/2021 20:15

It seems odd that you know so much about the process but are seemingly unaware of failures.

Eg, If its a domestic rape - we can put a DVPN in place - this effectively ejects the partner from the home if required despite who the home owner is.
You must know police have recently been criticised for not understanding and properly using protection notices and orders.

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