CPS consultation: "Help us improve how we explain our work on rape and serious sexual assault"

[HeadPain]

"Help us improve how we explain our work on rape and serious sexual assault"

mobile.twitter.com/CPSUK/status/1453659687480696834

"We’re committed to improving the information we provide to victims about the way we charge and prosecute rape and serious sexual assault.

Today we’ve launched a step-by-step guide to take victims and their supporters through the trial process.

Take a look www.cps.gov.uk/rasso-victims-guide "

"We're determined to drive up the number of cases going to court so that more victims see justice.

We’d like your feedback on our new guide for victims of rape and serious sexual assault, to make sure we’re getting it right.

Have your say - www.cps.gov.uk/rasso-feedback "

Hmmm...

[NumberTheory]

@Felix125

NumberTheory

"...Are you actually police officer? This is at best disingenuous, at worst ignorant. And I'm not sure which is worse..."

Sorry, I might be missing something (its been a long day) but I'm not sure what you mean

You keep saying things like "the victim's account is included" as though that is the same thing as the witnesses account being accepted as what happened. Where as that is not necessarily the basis on which some one makes a guilty plea.

I'm asking if that is that ignorance on your part or deliberate obfuscation?

[Felix125]

If the suspect pleads guilty, then they are pleading guilty to the victim's/witnesses account - if its a straight guilty plea it has to be all or nothing.

If they only accept part of the victims/witnesses account, then it either goes to a plea bargain and the full case is ran as it stands.

[NumberTheory]

@Felix125

If the suspect pleads guilty, then they are pleading guilty to the victim's/witnesses account - if its a straight guilty plea it has to be all or nothing.

If they only accept part of the victims/witnesses account, then it either goes to a plea bargain and the full case is ran as it stands.

So you're ignorant. Good to know. In some ways I'd prefer that your lack of thought about the how the CJS is experienced by victims was based on ignorance rather than callousness.

If you're actually a police officer you might want to read up on plea basis and Newton hearings.

[Felix125]

Newton Hearing - A hearing in criminal proceedings required when the defendant pleads guilty to an offence(s) but there is disagreement with the prosecution as to the material facts on which the defendant should be sentenced. This can occur when the accused pleads guilty on a specific basis that the prosecution does not accept. Such as the witness account. Hence the guilty plea can be declined.

[NumberTheory]

@Felix125

Newton Hearing - A hearing in criminal proceedings required when the defendant pleads guilty to an offence(s) but there is disagreement with the prosecution as to the material facts on which the defendant should be sentenced. This can occur when the accused pleads guilty on a specific basis that the prosecution does not accept. Such as the witness account. Hence the guilty plea can be declined.

Well it's nice to know you've (sort of) educated yourself a little.

In practice what this means is that prosecutors and courts often accept a guilty plea on a basis substantially different from the account of the witness in order to avoid a trial or Newton hearing and the sentencing goes ahead on that basis. Which, as I said way up thread, often leaves witnesses feeling disbelieved and their experiences minimized.

[NiceGerbil]

@Felix125

Nicegerbil
You have to demonstrate the trend as apposed to individual incidents to show that 'the police' fail victims in this manner.

Have there been mistakes - of course there has.
Are they corrupt individuals - of course they are

But you have to show that the majority of victims are let down at the point of contact by police - which I don't think they are.

Remember sapphire?

No?

[Felix125]

Nicegerbil

Sapphire - remind me?

[Felix125]

NumberTheory

Can you give an example where a guilty plea has been accepted on a basis substantially different from the account of the witness or the victim/witness has not been informed

[NiceGerbil]

Sorry was just rereading your posts.

They indicate that you work with the police in some capacity, and you clearly know chapter and verse on procedures. So I'm guessing some time on the force?

Obv this is a thread about sex offences. Is that your specific area?

Just interested really. You don't have to answer.

Re sapphire. Google will help. Plenty to read. Happy to chat once you've refreshed your memory.

[NiceGerbil]

I mean it sounds like you've been on the force for some time ie years, interested in your background. Obv some info or none is up to you!

[NumberTheory]

@Felix125

NumberTheory

Can you give an example where a guilty plea has been accepted on a basis substantially different from the account of the witness or the victim/witness has not been informed

I'm not permitted to talk directly about cases I've worked with and it's hard to point to particular cases that are publicly available as it's not information that's generally reported on. But it was my first thought when I see reports like the Cieslak case:

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/student-who-admitted-rape-12-10045698
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/daniel-cieslak-rape-victim-12-year-old-girl-speaks-out-devastated-absolute-discharge-glasgow-high-court-lady-maggie-scott-edinburgh-scotland-consent-a7879211.html

[sawdustformypony]

It's almost never a good idea to put any faith in newspaper articles. They are clickbaits and are often indifferent to the facts if it doesn't suit their needs.

[Felix125]

NumberTheory

So, with this Cieslak case - i'm assuming this went to a Newton hearing of some description based on R v Delahaye-Bryan "...In cases where a defendant admits sexual activity with a child under 13 but states that the victim consented, the proper course is to invite the court to hold a Newton hearing but only after consideration has been given to the impact on the child and the public interest in proceeding in this way..."
Also "...The defence of reasonable belief does not apply if the child is under 13 years. .." R v Bree (I think)

Also the judge herself declared that this was a "wholly exceptional decision" - so therefore not the norm.

Prosecutors were also able to tell the court how it has effected the victim "she was distressed at the time" - they could have only got that from the victim's account on how its effected her.

So, his guilty plea was accepted. The judge has also taken into consideration the views of the victim together with the rest of the witnesses and what ever other evidence there was to use to decide a punishment.

From a police & CPS point of view he was charged with rape. The judge has then used the witness/victim accounts to accept this adjudication and form the sentence.

Did the victim appeal the sentence do we know?

[Felix125]

Nicegerbil

Opp Saphire - A Met Police re-organisation of a rape investigation team. So that instead of it being a central team, it is made up of smaller teams to run alongside the local DV units. However, all the Met Police's databases will talk to each other as well as neighbouring forces. So if one team picks up a job with a specific suspect it will be easy to research them force wide.

I've been an emergency response officer for 20+ years now and first responder to rapes, sexual assaults etc (rape trained officer we used to be called). I work in a force miles away from the Met which is probably why i have not heard of sapphire before. Our force is split into 4 areas and has separate investigation units - but we all still talk to each other and the computers are all linked so serial offenders & crime trends are still easily picked up.

[NumberTheory]

@Felix125

NumberTheory

So, with this Cieslak case - i'm assuming this went to a Newton hearing of some description based on R v Delahaye-Bryan "...In cases where a defendant admits sexual activity with a child under 13 but states that the victim consented, the proper course is to invite the court to hold a Newton hearing but only after consideration has been given to the impact on the child and the public interest in proceeding in this way..."
Also "...The defence of reasonable belief does not apply if the child is under 13 years. .." R v Bree (I think)

Also the judge herself declared that this was a "wholly exceptional decision" - so therefore not the norm.

Prosecutors were also able to tell the court how it has effected the victim "she was distressed at the time" - they could have only got that from the victim's account on how its effected her.

So, his guilty plea was accepted. The judge has also taken into consideration the views of the victim together with the rest of the witnesses and what ever other evidence there was to use to decide a punishment.

From a police & CPS point of view he was charged with rape. The judge has then used the witness/victim accounts to accept this adjudication and form the sentence.

Did the victim appeal the sentence do we know?

I don't know what happened in this case, Felix, that's what I said. I give it merely as an example of the sorts of disparities you can get in guilty pleas.

I haven't seen any reports about appeal against sentence. But it's the prosecutor (Procurator Fiscal in Scotland?) who appeals a sentence, the girl would have to ask them. If guilt was found/admitted on the basis the girl was an active participant, an appeal for sentencing wouldn't be much use. They'd need a retrial to be able to ask for a sentence on the basis that she didn't agree to sex. Is that even allowed if it's not evidence?

I don't know that there was a Newton Hearing, there is no reference to one or to findings the court made, and if there had been one over whether or not the girl consented at the time I wouldn't expect the judge to make comments in the ruling to say there was no question that she didn't because, obviously, a hearing about it would only be necessary if there was a question mark over it. But these things aren't made explicit most of the time. We don't know what the judge saw compared to what the girl put in her letter. So we don't know what went on here.

But we do know the girl felt let down by the system and that a great many rape victims do and, given her letter, you can see why she might.

[NiceGerbil]

@Felix125

Nicegerbil

Opp Saphire - A Met Police re-organisation of a rape investigation team. So that instead of it being a central team, it is made up of smaller teams to run alongside the local DV units. However, all the Met Police's databases will talk to each other as well as neighbouring forces. So if one team picks up a job with a specific suspect it will be easy to research them force wide.

I've been an emergency response officer for 20+ years now and first responder to rapes, sexual assaults etc (rape trained officer we used to be called). I work in a force miles away from the Met which is probably why i have not heard of sapphire before. Our force is split into 4 areas and has separate investigation units - but we all still talk to each other and the computers are all linked so serial offenders & crime trends are still easily picked up.

You weren't familiar with/ remember sapphire.

You asked me to refresh memory and I said Google better as so much info.

You presumably had a look and what you found about sapphire is that it was reorganised in order to better assist victims of dv as well.

You work for the police as a first responder (not sure what that means) including rape and have done for 20+ years.

Ok I think I got that, let me know if anything wrong.

[NiceGerbil]

Felix then what I take from this is-

You had never heard of sapphire
When you googled you found info that explained that it was reorganised.

That's really interesting. I'm going to Google and see what comes back. If it's reorganisation that is... V worrying in itself.

[NiceGerbil]

Omg

Googled sapphire unit met police and top results are indeed all about reorganisation.

Articles that touch on some of the issues. Couple gov reports.

I'm really taken aback.

That's really... I am taken aback tbh.

[NiceGerbil]

Felix you've heard of warboys I assume?
Maybe Kirk Reid?

Obv not know about handling. Nor about the tampering with paperwork/ evidence and etc etc. For loads of other cases. Women having to be contacted to say. Oh hello. Sorry we binned everything and that was that. Dodgy officers. Can you come back and have another crack at reporting?

I'm. Wow.

Well that's fun.

I wonder what else on Google has been... Prioritised interestingly.

Going to try.
Charles de menezes ( lied about, covered up, murder).
Ian Tomlinson (murdered, covered up, lied about)...

Let's see.

[IncessantNameChanger]

I wont waste my time but if it takes over two years to get to the cps and three years to get to trail I think that's a pretty fundamental failure.

Waiting three years to get your 1% chance in court. Utter shambolic joke of a justice system which seems set up to fail rape victims

[NumberTheory]

Felix Moving on from plea bargaining, you referred to a "case where there was evidence on the victims phone which was not disclosed to the court and exonerated the accused." as justification for police routinely asking for phone records and CPS requesting records that were not proportionate. Was it the Liam Allen trial you were referring to?

[NiceGerbil]

Ah the phones thing.

I was pissed off but not surprised that when the rape/ phone/ collapsed trial stuff was in the news a few years ago.

That in a couple of the reports in more broadsheet type papers.

There was a couple lines at the end saying. This phone/ evidence/ trial collapse issue. Has been an issue with crimes across the board. The % rape trials collapsed is in line with that for other crimes.

....

Same old same old.

[NiceGerbil]

On this thread we are being told by a poster who has 20+ years on UK/ England police. On the sharp end.

That when women (girls?) report sex offences this is the process and no issues.

An officer who responds to reports of sex offences against women/girls as a routine part of job. Who has never had any reason through anything- press news etc- to even have considered that sex offence reports are not always dealt with carefully and seriously.

Who has never heard of the issues with sapphire etc. Ok I'm in London but i assumed warboys etc was fairly well known.

Having said that. There's been loads of police on fwr threads about this sort of thing who have literally zero even recognition of names/ terms about stuff in the met. Things I assumed were just really well known and that those in the trade as it were would definitely at least recognise!

The responses from current police officers on threads on MN have always bothered me. Recent threads about couzens and the sisters killed. So defensive. So many posters upset by the... Lack of any kind of engagement apart from shut up, essentially.

[Inneedofcoffeeandchocolate]

All those things should be known by anyone who works in a related role. That's if the workforce was working reflectively, thoughtfully and wanting to improve. How anyone can work in any part of the justice system dealing with rape and sexual assault and not question what the fuck is wrong given the conviction rate is difficult to believe - and yet it makes sense - they are part of the problem.

[Felix125]

Inneedofcoffeeandchocolate
All of what things should be known - an operation within the Met that's reorganising a department to make it less centralised and more local. What has that operation got anything to do with my force which is miles away from the Met and already works separate investigative departments. I could list hundreds of operations we have that the Met and all the other forces and the public would not know about and I wouldn't expect them to..

And if you think centralisation of police departments is the way forward - the public would disagree with you. For years, smaller forces have suggested merging with other neighbouring smaller forces to make one large centralised force. Would save a fortune in money - yet the local people/community are against it as they feel they would get less of a service.

And i am questioning what is wrong with the conviction rate - my first post says that. Where i have said that its fine as it is?


Nicegerbil
Of course there have been mistakes, coverups and corruption in the past and I'm not trying to defend them at all - but are you saying that's the norm. If you are, you first have to demonstrate the trend as opposed to individual incidents. So, of all sexual offences reported are you saying that 100% of them fail due to corruption or is it 1% (or lower) as i think the numbers are relevant here.

First responder - So, i attend all emergency calls such as burglaries, commercial breaks, sudden deaths, missing from homes, frauds, mental health concerns, fights, affrays, assaults, CSE, HBV, domestic violence - you name it really. Then if there are no emergencies we will get sent to the next priority calls - such as non-emergency breaks, assaults etc.

I am also part of the sexual offences investigation team - so if a rape/sexual assault etc comes in - i will get sent to the victim and will be left to deal with this without being diverted to anything else. So i will be able to obtain their first account, seize clothing, identify a suspect/scene, arrange for their arrest and forensic samples to be taken from them, scene management and liaise with SOCO, safeguarding, arrange a medical examination of the victim, early evidence gathering, arrange for support services to engage with them. This then gets handed over to the specific crime time who will deal with the ongoing investigation and identify a specific officer/s

I'm not saying that there are no issues as you have highlighted from the press etc - indeed I never have. I am asking if you can see anything wrong with the above process for a 'first responder' initially? At what stage am I not dealing with the victim carefully and seriously? And its not just women/girls who are victims of sex crimes as you keep alluding to.

And then from this, how can we go about increasing the conviction rate - bearing in mind that the outgoing investigation has to be impartial and has to test the evidence presented from all sides before we pass this to CPS for a charging decision.



IncessantNameChanger
Which cases have taken 3 years to get to court and what was the reason for it? Was it due to further incidents being reported, forensic issues etc.
Our turnaround for cases to get CPS charging advice is 28 days. This takes into account all the unused material submissions etc. It can be longer depending on the evidence your looking at. Low copy DNA examination can take quite a while as can computer examination.


Numbertheory
Yes, i think it was the Liam Allen case. So this was all about disclosure of messages on the phones which were not disclosed to the court. As a result he was exonerated.

We can't 'routinely' go through a victims phone. We can only do this if there is evidence on the phone which is too important not to included it in the trial. That's a stated case and now case law - R v 'something or other' - i can find out if you want me to.