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Feminism: chat

Clear link between misogyny and violence

68 replies

TheEvilPea · 29/10/2021 09:45

I am filled with rage reading this article. The figures equate to one violent sexual crime for every two male students! And that's just those they admitted to. But it's good that what is so obvious - that misogynistic beliefs lead to violence against women - has been shown again to be a clear pattern. So misogynism has to be stamped out now.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/oct/29/research-reveals-rapes-and-assaults-admitted-to-by-male-uk-students

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KayKayWat · 01/11/2021 19:56

When I say 'offenders' I don't literally mean convicted offenders. Just that college and university youths always seem to come out worst in studies. I wonder if this is partly because this is often their first time living away from home as opposed to working class lads who will usually have been working for five years in an apprenticeship by this time and ironically be more emotionally mature despite being less well educated.

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BewareTheBeardedDragon · 01/11/2021 20:18

Both studies linked specifically surveyed students. Have similar studies examined non-university educated men?

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NiceGerbil · 02/11/2021 00:30

I just have reservations.

Could be away from home and there are misogynist groups normalising? And then the institutions cover up? Like armed forces police etc?

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Chocaholic9 · 02/11/2021 03:39

I've had many bad experiences with men, especially around consent, so when I read about 1 in 3 men being willing to rape it sounded about right to me.

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LobsterNapkin · 02/11/2021 12:16

I think maybe NiceGerbils point was that any kind of dehumanizing of others seems to be linked to violence.

I don't think we can assume that's a directly causative relationship. And it's unclear to me that we can clearly separate about what appear to be different types. I'm not convinced this is a phenomena where you have some people who hate women who are therefore violent, and some people who hate foreigners who are therefor violent, and so on.

It seems like there are some people who are essentially just self-serving or narcissistic who don't think well of anyone who is not of use to them, or powerful, and they will treat anyone else as a thing. And I've sometimes wondered if there are not some people prone to violence who find people to enact that upon, rather than the other way around.

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LobsterNapkin · 02/11/2021 12:27

As far as universities, I can think of a few possibilities.

More well off people in general are more entitled.

Alcohol, especially in mixed groups - it's really well established that alcohol is implicated in a lot of sexual assaults. The drinking culture among university students often not healthy and will exacerbate this.

When I worked as a student at a women's residence, it was notable to me that many of the young female students didn't see any need for precautions, for example when going out with male students to their rooms or drinking, even when they really didn't know them. They didn't feel they should stay in public places, or tell a roommate when to expect them back. More savvy women are often more cautious, but this is a young population that's often been relatively protected by their social/economic situation and parents. They are also often less likely to try and extricate themselves early on from a situation, or have a firm sense of their own boundaries, or even to see when someone is a creep. All of this means they are less likely to avoid dangerous situations.

Something of a generalization, but when you are looking at things like trades training, there is still something more of a sex split, where some areas like heavy trades are mostly men, and some like office work are very female dominated. So you don't get quite the same sense of all hanging out as buddies in a mixed sex group.

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AssassinatedBeauty · 02/11/2021 12:47

@KayKayWat you cannot make any statements about non-university educated men and their attitudes based off this survey. It tells you nothing about that group of men whatsoever. For all anyone knows, they might be worse, the same, better, or vary in more complex ways. It's a total unknown, unless/until someone has done a study that includes men from a wider range of backgrounds and shown a statistically significant difference in attitudes in relation to levels of education.

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TheEvilPea · 02/11/2021 15:00

When I worked as a student at a women's residence, it was notable to me that many of the young female students didn't see any need for precautions, for example when going out with male students to their rooms or drinking, even when they really didn't know them. They didn't feel they should stay in public places, or tell a roommate when to expect them back. More savvy women are often more cautious, but this is a young population that's often been relatively protected by their social/economic situation and parents. They are also often less likely to try and extricate themselves early on from a situation, or have a firm sense of their own boundaries, or even to see when someone is a creep. All of this means they are less likely to avoid dangerous situations.

That is just victim blaming though. Why should women have to "take precautions". Men need to stop assaulting women!

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TheEvilPea · 02/11/2021 15:02

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@KayKayWat you cannot make any statements about non-university educated men and their attitudes based off this survey. It tells you nothing about that group of men whatsoever. For all anyone knows, they might be worse, the same, better, or vary in more complex ways. It's a total unknown, unless/until someone has done a study that includes men from a wider range of backgrounds and shown a statistically significant difference in attitudes in relation to levels of education. [/quote]
I really wish somebody would do some rigorous research with statistically valid numbers so that pressure can be put in politicians to do something about this that is actually evidence-based and hopefully therefore effective. So many of us are so angry now but still nothing changes. Does anybody know any academics in this field who could and would do this if we pressed the Equalities Office for funding?

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TheEvilPea · 02/11/2021 15:04

@BewareTheBeardedDragon

Wow, those questions are pretty unequivocal and not at all like what I had read about before. The results are even more shocking - those answering clearly knew exactly what they were doing and did it anyway. SadAngry

Yep. Sad
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TheEvilPea · 02/11/2021 15:04

@MsAmerica

I understand your anger, but it seems to me that one could just as easily say that xenophobia leads to violence, or any number of other things.

Whataboutery of the finest order.
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TheEvilPea · 02/11/2021 15:05
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TheEvilPea · 02/11/2021 15:09

Has anybody watched "A promising young woman". I saw this a few days ago and I wish women would do what she does en masse!

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BewareTheBeardedDragon · 02/11/2021 17:19

I haven't Theevilpea but it looks very interesting and I will watch it when I have time.

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KayKayWat · 02/11/2021 18:50

That is just victim blaming though. Why should women have to "take precautions".

Whether you should ultimately have to is distinct from whether it's sensible to IMO.

I should be able to leave my life savings on my doorstep but I'm not going to.

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LobsterNapkin · 02/11/2021 18:54

@TheEvilPea

When I worked as a student at a women's residence, it was notable to me that many of the young female students didn't see any need for precautions, for example when going out with male students to their rooms or drinking, even when they really didn't know them. They didn't feel they should stay in public places, or tell a roommate when to expect them back. More savvy women are often more cautious, but this is a young population that's often been relatively protected by their social/economic situation and parents. They are also often less likely to try and extricate themselves early on from a situation, or have a firm sense of their own boundaries, or even to see when someone is a creep. All of this means they are less likely to avoid dangerous situations.

That is just victim blaming though. Why should women have to "take precautions". Men need to stop assaulting women!

It has nothing to do with victim blaming. Honestly I think that phrase does more damage than good sometimes, because it stops people thinking things through, it becomes a thought terminating phrase. We aren't talking about blame of any kind.

The question was, why so many assaults at universities? One possibility is, more opportunity. If women in universities are less cautious than other cohorts, that could be a reason there is more opportunity.

It's really irrelevant whether you think that it's morally unpalatable that behaviour might make a group more or less liable to be attacked. From a statistical perspective it only matters whether it's true.
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TheEvilPea · 03/11/2021 00:37

No, it doesn't just matter whether it's true. Obviously it is true that women are more vulnerable if they are young and inexperienced and have had a few drinks. Of course that is true.

My objection is that the solution is to tell women that they should not be able to do that rather than take measures to stamp out the behaviour of the perpetrators.

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TheEvilPea · 03/11/2021 00:40

We don't say "hey black people, white people have often been violent to you so just stay away from them! Don't drink, don't be alone with them". We criminalise racism and prosecute it as a hate crime. I don't understand the idea that it's different with misogyny.

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NiceGerbil · 03/11/2021 01:06

In the last couple decades or so, the idea that what- class education wealth etc is linked to going to uni is pretty much eroded surely.

I mean again I only know my area etc but loads of people I know in the trades have kids off to uni or graduated. And doing really well.

Men who have grafted outside for years as labourers. Work that wrecks you. So proud of a son studying architecture. A daughter with a science degree in a great job for a pharmaceutical co. Etc etc. I mean loads.

Thinking, I also see stuff like-

Boutique shops opening v young women guessing patents backing
Big traditional corporates in last few years saying not interested in degrees etc but attitude and etc. Say for groups discriminated against. Hmm. Or Hamworthys son shit a levels no uni pissing about. Sales role? ....

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NiceGerbil · 03/11/2021 01:12

Why do many assaults at universities?

Why do many in armed forces?

Why male police officers so many reports by women in public who have come into contact as victims etc?

On a limb I'm going to guess.. opportunity and culture.
So many young people away from home in close contact.
These days seems through school teens not mixing much. Drinking tricky. Little mixing in general as pubs clubs strict now. Freedom seems v constrained.

So I'd say first taste of freedom for many, sudden unlimited freedom, own room. Booze. Want to make friends. Etc.

Why all the sex offences?

I'd suggest. Opportunity. In the end.

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TheEvilPea · 03/11/2021 01:17

Opportunity is certainly part of it, @NiceGerbil , but a person also needs motivation to commit such a heinous sexual offence. They have to have the attitudes towards women instilled that they would even want to do this. The opportunity to do something you have no desire to do won't make you do it. It is the motivation to look for an opportunity to do this that needs to be addressed.

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NiceGerbil · 03/11/2021 01:31

IME over years and years.

The majority of blokes- whatever age job education etc. Are just no risk at all. Most as you say. Wouldn't dream of seriously assaulting a woman or girl who was totally out of it.

Coercion / encouraging to drink so as to lose inhibitions etc. Always been rife and normalised in society.

Groping IE sexually assaulting in crowded pubs clubs etc as above. Not seen as big deal.

I genuinely think that even in a really noxious with men saying etc all sorts, most blokes would not cross a line to do with totally out of it/ force .

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NiceGerbil · 03/11/2021 01:36

I just am not sure much has changed.

In the news when it comes to women being attacked, over the last decade or so i remember in UK-

Boys sports coaches
People running children's homes
Systematic grooming in cities generally in north
Girls in areas with a lot of gang activity
Female police officers
Women in armed forces
Girls in schools across public, private, state sector
Women exploited by police officers
Women/ girls with various disabilities by those caring for them
And etc etc etc etc.

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TheEvilPea · 03/11/2021 01:36

I've always worked in male dominated environments, too, and I'm not so sure. It is especially worse with younger men, sadly. I don't know what has gone wrong. Even if most men who express misogynistic things as a "joke" or stand by while others do so would not cause physical harm themselves, they are doing harm by doing that because it moves the Overton window, it makes other men who do have a propensity to violence feel it is socially acceptable to objectify women and not treat them as people worthy of respect. This is why racist comments are hate speech: there doesn't have to be physical violence for it to be a hate crime. Perpetuating the environment of hate is a crime in itself. I don't think it's acceptable to excuse the men who are misogynistic, or stand by saying nothing while their friends are, but don't actually commit assaults themselves of their role in perpetuating the culture that directly leads to these assaults and rapes.

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NiceGerbil · 03/11/2021 01:45

I'm not sure about this survey. The ordering of questions is peculiar and imo disclosure levels bonkers high.

I'm not convinced by this study but I would say.

Men and boys with serious privilege do seem to be worse in general when it comes to lots of things Def including entitlement / sex/ women etc.
That includes the v wealthy, families with influence, those who excel at sports, those with power/ protection of group in ( police etc).

I've met a lot of creeps in a lot of places. Friends gone creepy. Nice blokes suddenly turning into scary. 'white Knights'. Blah etc.

It's just men. Most are fine. Some are not. Focusing on uni/ going out at night/ etc is a diversion. Because the fact they can't be spotted /and whatever we do it's still luck. Is just really uncomfortable to face up to.

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