Is there a solution to women being attacked by strangers?

[Hoardasaurusterf]

Just pondering as I pass the time on a long train journey! There's been a lot in the media following the horrific murders of Sarah Everard & Sabina Nessa (among others) about safety. Suggestions such as the 888 app are considered victim blaming.

So how do we tackle it? Is it possible to change these mens' behaviour? Would changing society's view of women as sex objects, lesser humans etc really stop those with the worst intentions? I'm sure higher rape conviction rates would help but I feel that would be more for date rape/known assailant situations than random attacks by strangers?
I just feel that it would be so difficult to change the behaviour of men who would go so far as to abduct a stranger off the street to rape and/or murder. Educating such men that women deserve respect just won't cut it. So what can we do? Feeling quite despondent as mum of a teenage dd that nothing has changed since I was a teen 30 yrs ago. If anything it's gotten worse

@PattiPritell the problem is bystanders often DON'T intervene even when it's obvious someone is being assaulted sadly plus that still means that someone has been assaulted. We want to get to a point where assaults don't even begin or at least not as often as they currently do
Yes, I agree and to be fair people don't intervene because they might then become the target. And also the embarrassment situation, or fear of misreading a situation.
But the more people who intervene, and the more cases that reach the courts - then eventually these factors should result in a decrease of assaults I would think.

if you weren't thinking of any society in particular how you could possibly posit the opinion you did?! That makes no sense.
Yes, it does. Do you really think absolutely every society has the same level of violence against women by strangers? That seems profoundly depressing. That points to it being unaffected by any measures we might take.

What is needed are mandatory self defence classes for girls in school - not just once or twice but througout their education; and discounted lessons for adult women. But I guarantee if that happens you’ll have the PC crowd demanding the same lessons for their sons / want boys to attend with girls & thus defeat the purpose.

Sorry for posting & running! On holiday with my teen dd & ds so been busy! Will have a read of all your replies now!

@Ozanj

What is needed are mandatory self defence classes for girls in school - not just once or twice but througout their education; and discounted lessons for adult women. But I guarantee if that happens you’ll have the PC crowd demanding the same lessons for their sons / want boys to attend with girls & thus defeat the purpose.

Agree that boys would soon be included! I am 5'2, my dd 16 is a smidgeon taller and very slight. Her twin brother is a skinny 5'9 weighing less than 8 &1/2 stone. He is way stronger than dd & I and could overpower both of us so easily. Not sure if self defense would be all that useful for us shorties! Willing to be proven wrong though!

Totally agree with those saying men need to call out bad behaviour in other men. Shocked that so many men would sit behind their newspaper/ look out the window while a young woman is verbally abused on a train.
My dd & friend had a middle aged man start verbally abusing them on a train recently. At 4pm on a busy train talking filth to young girls. A young man in his early twenties intervened and the creep told him to fuck off but never said another thing to the girls. We need more of that!

TRexx, it never occurred to me that I could report the regular, sustained verbal harrassment I experienced as a 12-13yr old 30 odd yrs ago! Sadly, I suspect if I had reported it
( & perpetrators were known to me) it would have been shrugged off as 'boys will be boys'. Especially as I was not physically harmed by these boys.Never mind that I was so traumatised that I barely left the house except to go to school and it really tainted my teenage years. One particular harasser was part of a large group of older teen boys( 17 -18 yr olds) who hung around near my house every evening. Not one of his friends ever said a word. Some will be fathers of teenage girls Would they like their daughters to suffer that?

@WTF475878237NC

brokenbiscuitsx and HH76ds31 I'm sorry that happened to you and no one had the courage and insight to do anything about it. How dreadful.

I was discussing this with my husband this week and he said until violence against women becomes a problem for men, nothing will change. I thought, yes but even worse than that, violence against women needs to become a problem for powerful men in order for them to have the ability to effect change. That requires such a major shift in cultural and political attitudes.

Thing I always ponder on.

Is that male violence is a massive problem for MEN.

But IME irl and SM and politicians etc.

As a group they don't seem to care about that either. Like, at all.

In fact IME in general plenty of them-

In general seem to be much more focused on them and their family friends etc. Not really any connection as it were to men around the place in general. Thinking about it, men generally tend to care about an issue if it's personal, local etc.

There's also I've noticed and observed for s few years now. When things come up that are not linked to them. Tend to just tune out switch off. I've watched this it's not consciously done.

And generally there's a subconscious thing that anything to do with helping others. That is essentially a woman thing. Nothing to do with them.

I started watching maybe 8 years ago.. That's my conclusion.

Educating such men that women deserve respect just won't cut it

Have we as a society (or any society?) really really tried to educate men/boys? I feel we haven't. We all say it, but then there's always an assumption that it's impossible, that we can't change men, men will be men, etc. But surely as a society we need to try much, much harder?

How much is actually being taught to men/boys, in a rigorous manner? Perhaps we should instill into them like a form of training, different ways that women/girls feel unsafe and to think about the impacts of their various behaviours and what not to do. And to instill in them the idea that women are not "asking for it", by wearing certain items or walking in certain areas.

I just feel that it gets mentioned in passing, but we all really give up when it comes to men somehow.

@Bolognesedoc

if you weren't thinking of any society in particular how you could possibly posit the opinion you did?! That makes no sense. Yes, it does. Do you really think absolutely every society has the same level of violence against women by strangers? That seems profoundly depressing. That points to it being unaffected by any measures we might take.

I agree with this it's a point I made often in response to. That's what men are like nothing can be done.

And it's not just about the most violent attacks. It's about the whole range of dodgy behaviours by men to women when out and about.

And if it's socially acceptable for say. A group of men to hang around on the street watching women go past and commenting/ insulting/ intimidating / sexual comments proposition etc.

Then that reflects across the board when it comes to how seriously sex offences in general are taken, and the view of women by men.

Yes it's hard to get decent stats about any of this.

However. It's just known isn't it? That it varies across societies/ parts of societies. To a point that studies are great but we don't need one to see there is a difference?

Eg (and these are generalisations and broad. Differences in countries in different parts, in groups more at risk etc etc)

Rape - seen news about massive figures and disinterest from police etc in India, Russia, also ZA and DRC + more. (Obviously bad here at the mo and prob not good anywhere. These countries there have been reported as massive rises/ epidemic in news that I remember).

Massively different levels of Street harrassment around the world as already mentioned.

DV and other things in the home. More or less made legal in Russia few years back? Plenty of countries see as family matter.

Laws that don't recognise various crimes against women and girls as crimes, or are written so excludes loads of attacks. Eg rape have to fight back or its not rape.

And so on.

Yes attitudes can be changed.

Globally little appetite though.

'Have we as a society (or any society?) really really tried to educate men/boys? I feel we haven't. We all say it, but then there's always an assumption that it's impossible, that we can't change men, men will be men, etc. But surely as a society we need to try much, much harder?'

Hate to say this but won't work. Very possibly would be counter productive.

Until societal attitudes esp from men shift. Then it's pointless. Generally boys, same as girls, soak up the prevailing, general attitudes of those around them. Boys look to men.

Men on the whole are resentful to a greater or lesser extent of women's gains in society. Feel hard done by. Always the bad guy. What about their problems? Women always going on about how awful men are.

Trying to teach boys to empathise etc with girls will for many be met with zero interest or hostility, currently.

I also think the way porn has gone (utter misogyny. Focus on male sexual dominance, humiliation, pain etc) is to do with men reacting to the changes in women's imporoved societal position.

I can see you are very literally minded and so are misunderstanding posts somewhat.

The post you replied to with points about how young women could exploit it to ruin young men's lives for no reason.

Appreciate you put some thought into it.

However you're missing that it was about that poster and her OH trying to come up with ANY possible ideas that could reduce / stop male sexual violence.

As with the curfew men thing in the OP.

What you're missing is that these thoughts are not actual real life suggestions to push for. They would never happen. That's the whole point. That when it comes to reducing the risk of a man or boy carrying out sex offences, it is not in any way acceptable to even slightly consider anything that would even slightly impact any aspect of men's lives. The focus has always been on women and girls somehow trying to dodge danger from men when it can happen any time anywhere and we don't know which man is a risk.

I know it's difficult if you are a very literal person.

Maybe it would be more straightforward for you to share any ideas you have, on how to reduce/ address the prevalence of dodgy/ criminal sexually motivated behaviour by men and boys, targeting women and girls.

I was thinking of ideas a few days ago when I read about a prick that came from London to Cardiff for a party and drugged and gang raped the girl whose birthday it was. The judge said something along the lines of 'you went intending to have sex, regardless of whether it was consensual or not'
As these pieces of shit clearly don't care about women, and often coming from a broken home is used as an excuse, let's put it back on the waste of space men who impregnate women and then fuck off, leaving their sons to grow up feral (not all kids from single parent households, and I know single mothers do an amazing job which is why I am putting no blame there). If a male gets arrested for rape, domestic abuse, etc, track down the father and charge him too.
I know that's not workable for many reasons, but if young men expect to be able to play the 'poor me, I had no dad' and equally be able to fuck around and walk away from their children, make them have some culpability when it all goes wrong

Interesting but don't agree.

Loads of dodgy/ criminal male sexual behaviour towards women, the men/ boys have zero background issues.

Blaming the parent/s doesn't make sense.

You can't hold parents legally responsible for actions of offspring esp when older/ adult.

The problem is societal.

Loads of men feel hard done by. Resent women from slightly to hatred.

Porn really is adding to problems in so many ways.

Realistically.

The societal change that's needed to reduce all this must be driven by men.

IMO not going to happen in my lifetime.

Sorry not an optimistic post.

I would stamp down on porn and give all the 'be kind' shtick a serious rest.
Then education. Schools have capacity to help here. Teach respect, teach active bystander techniques, enthusiastic consent etc. Hammer the message home that girls matter. My dd was once chosen as a class rep for something utterly trivial in Upper primary and one of the loud boys in her class started heckling and complaining that he wanted the job. Dd instantly offered him the role. She felt responsible for his happiness before her own and didn't want a scene. Her teacher (who is fabulous) insisted she kept the role but it had already been tainted. Tackle entitlement as it arises in small matters then take it seriously as and when larger problems arise, don't minimise. I read a horrible twitter thread about a school wanting to handle a rape 'in house' they had redifined it as an altercation between two pupils. Staggering gas lighting .

I cannot see blokes changing any time soon.

They were better with this stuff in the 80s/ early 90s than now.

The usual argument is fronting up to dodgy man/ men means fight. No thanks.

The fact that they can-

Tell bar staff/ bouncers/ tube staff/ shop workers etc if somewhere like that.

Or if man harrassing persistently woman/ girl just standing nearish and showing that you have noticed is often enough to do the trick.

They hardly ever do though.

Women do a bit more I think but still this bystander thing is strong.

I tend to do something but I'm a bit, unusual maybe !

@TReXX

I look back at when I was sexually assaulted in school and then sexually harassed at work and wonder why I didn't report it. I've always been a feminist and was upset by the incidents.

I now realise that I had no one I felt I could report it to.

So maybe we need to strengthen the complaint system, highlight that it can be reported and to whom and then properly follow through and punish the aggressors...?

I came out into the corridor just in time to see a boy stick his hand up a girl's skirt and grope her. I took him and the wee girl to the depute's office and explained. The depute looked straight at the girl and demanded to know why she wasn't

wearing her school tie. Honestly. In the end I had to go over his head and report again.

Those are the things you believe will reduce sexual harrassment/ crime against women and girls?

Just checked thread title - specifically stranger attacks on women and girls.

If you have time I'd be interested to know why you think those things will reduce that?

I mean my first thought about the trades is that IME (not being judgy I have more than a fair few male friends working in construction in various specialities as well as labourers. Roofers bricklayers etc). And a few mechanics and etc.

Anyway IME and these are friends so I like them enough to put up with the fact that generally. We're not talking men who are noticeably more respectful etc in their general attitude to women/ girls than any other blokes.

I would also say that actual attacks on random women/ girls (and we're talking sexually motivated on this thread obv) are pretty extreme behaviour.

Can you give the thinking behind your ideas to reduce this extreme behaviour?

No men, is absolutely the prime solution, sadly. But as that can't happen....let women carry stun guns or equivalent. Drastic? of course. Necessary? Unfortunately so.

This sounds awful and terrible and not to mention illegal but I might encourage my dd to take out a special hidden knife. Just for safety. I’m so paranoid about something happening to her. Sometimes I’m tempted to take out a knife. I’d certainly use my keys. Or glass anything to hand to protect myself. Sometimes wish we could carry guns like in america to keep ourselves safer. Really is dark times.