What message is this sending to our daughters (Brownies)

[Butifyoucloseyoureyes]

My DD has just started attending Brownies and LOVES it! We were reading the guide book that was issued in her first session and it calls out the brownie guide law:

“A brownie guide thinks of others before herself and does a good turn everyday”

This is against the Cub Scout law:

“Cub scouts always do their best, think of others before themselves and do a good turn every day”

Isn’t the phrase ‘think of others before themselves” more apparent in the brownie motto? This places more of an emphasis of putting others first and providing the message that others should always come before you and your needs etc.

Perhaps peri-menopausal me is questioning this as I’m no longer someone who wants to sit back and accepts certain messages being handed down to our children (especially ones where the emphasis for Cubs is placed more on the ‘do their best’ bit) and I really do get the meaning behind the motto however in this day and age it doesn’t quite sit right with me.

Does anyone agree?

My kids have/do love guiding and Scouting and I did and my brother and my mother before us. There is so much good that comes from a volunteer driven organisation. I feel that if you don't like the ethos do be a part of it. If you want to be able to influence the movement then they are always asking for volunteers to help out at all levels and with many different tasks. Don't just criticise.

Sorry typos....don't be a part of it....

The full promise that Brownies make literally starts with ' I promise that I will do my best to ....
why does it need repeating in the law ? What an absolute non-issue.
They promise to ' be true to themselves' 'develop their beliefs ' 'serve the community' and 'keep the guide law'
What an absolute non-issue.
And bollocks that the new programme is only cake decorating and craft.
In the mid 80s in Brownies I did NO actual cooking. And my Guides now do a lot more real cooking than I did in 80s/90s Guides. They also learn about leadership skills, speaking out for things they think need to change , reflect on how important it is to be themselves , and most of all have run away from social media and pressure from school.

*have fun. Although I might need to run away from social media ...

My daughter goes to guides (and brownies before) because she likes it and her friends go. Not because of any ideologies. She also enjoys the cake decorating etc but equally enjoys the other elements.My son started cubs and didn’t enjoy the structure and activities much so he left. Neither of them paid much attention to the mottos, it was a simple question of enjoying or not.

Pileofbooks & "Alrightfella" - thanks I hadn't spotted that. Just remembered the "do your best" from my time

It's not against the Cub Scout law: if it was, it would say "“Brownie Guides always do their worst, think of themselves before others and do a bad turn every day”. All it does is leave out one element of the Cub Scout rule.

The stuff about Brownies being "girly"... yawn.

We are 4 weeks into the new term. So far, my Brownies have built a zipwire and a racetrack, tried archery, worked out what makes different balls good for different sports, learned about Formula1 flags, and played a games. Most of this outdoors. They've done one "craft" thing, because that was the activity an older Brownie chose to lead herself as part of an award. Focus there being on giving girls leadership opportunities, rather than glitter. And anyway, they enjoyed it. Craft / baking / whatever isn't intrinsically "bad". It's about balance.

Oh and outside of normal meetings, they've spent a day canoeing including much (safely supervised obvs) jumping in the river. And they've taken part in a virtual sleepover set in a motorsport and aviation museum, with various related activities. Again, all in the last month.

Independently earned badges awarded so far this term: My Rights, Collecting, Performing, Local History (x2), Grow Your Own and Painting. I happen to know we have at least couple of Aviation badges in progress, inspired by the sleepover, and an Inventing badge (that Brownie told me last night about some of the women pioneers / inventors she's been finding out about for it).

For the record, there ARE some issues with the programme and the scope of the interest badges, it's not all perfect imho. But I'm forever seeing comments on here that girls are in some way being held back by Guiding when in fact it's the complete opposite.

Anyway just wanted to pop on and give a bit of an idea as to what really goes on.

@2Two

It's not against the Cub Scout law: if it was, it would say "“Brownie Guides always do their worst, think of themselves before others and do a bad turn every day”. All it does is leave out one element of the Cub Scout rule.

The OP clearly used 'against' in the 'compare' sense, not suggesting an inverse.

@Hathertonhariden

The old pledge did say do your best. Interesting to know why that was dropped

Back in the day when I was a Brownie, we said:

'I promise that I will do my best
To love my god
To serve the Queen and my country,
To help other people,
And to keep the Brownie Guide Law'.

Interesting to see how it's evolved over time!

SpareName its great your Brownies do that! Truly! The Brownies in our area really are not like that however. I was a firm believer Brownies would be likebyou describe, as I remember it, but it certainly isn't here.

I just remember being desperate for someone to catch fire so that I could roll them in a rug. It was in my handbook...

The OP clearly used 'against' in the 'compare' sense, not suggesting an inverse.

No, she didn't.

@PileOfBooks

SpareName its great your Brownies do that! Truly! The Brownies in our area really are not like that however. I was a firm believer Brownies would be likebyou describe, as I remember it, but it certainly isn't here.

What we do is what Brownies is though. The programme is about adventure, wellbeing, life skills, creativity, confidence building, making a difference in our communities and the wider world.

For girls. In their own space.

If that's not being delivered locally to you (and I know there are units who struggle), then hopefully they are receiving support to change that.

Ultimately, what Girlguiding needs is more of us women who get it, and want girls to have the kind of opportunities I was talking about, to get involved and make it happen. If we're not actually doing something practical, through Girlguiding or through something else, then I think it only really causes harm and creates no good to sit on the sidelines and criticise (not directed at you, pileofbooks, but more generally)

@PileOfBooks

And yy to "as you love yourself" fill your own cup first etc.

I grew up very much in a world of "think of others first" and am also quite literal. It took me til my 30s to undo that ...

Me too!

Hatherton, it's on the page before.

No, I don't think it is more prominent, the difference is they omitted the "try your best" element.

The reasons for that aren't necessarily related, the Guiding organisation is pretty separate from Scouts. Whatever discussions they have had about wording don't necessarily relate to the ones the scouts have had. That being said, it's been my experience that scouts, especially at the lower levels, has always had a lot of emphasis on trying your best.

@LobsterNapkin

No, I don't think it is more prominent, the difference is they omitted the "try your best" element.

The reasons for that aren't necessarily related, the Guiding organisation is pretty separate from Scouts. Whatever discussions they have had about wording don't necessarily relate to the ones the scouts have had. That being said, it's been my experience that scouts, especially at the lower levels, has always had a lot of emphasis on trying your best.

They are completely separate. Two different, entirely independent organisations. Always have been, for all they have roots in common, and may join up from time to time at various levels for projects and events.

Cake decorating? Makeovers? What happened to teaching our girls to be fierce and independent?

Not really relevant to the thread, but I know in our Brownie group they have resorted to more indoor activities, because they are struggling to accommodate children with disabilities who won't be able to access physical outdoor activities and there is such a shortage of volunteers for support. They try to stick to more practical things, but the odd makeover does creep in.

Yes OP with you.

They redid the badges and etc a few years ago. I was dismayed by the new ones. They were skewed towards 'feminine' activities in a way they weren't before.

I also hated the focus on essentially putting everyone and anyone and anything before yourself at all times. Exact same as you think.

Really dismayed me tbh.

I mean there's also the whole
We've always been gender specific, never sex in our whole history.
Girls who can't come if mixed sex should join a different org.
There is no read to review procedures risk assessment for trips away as nothing has changed. Trans girls are girls so why would we think about reviewing anything
Etc etc
Total sods. They have always been for female children. Exclusively. And they have decided male children are now the main priority by miles.

Our brownies guides are led by women who do it because they specifically want to do things for women and girls.

They are all no nonsense feminist types. Whether they see themselves that way or not. It's in their words and actions.

They are volunteers. It's a massive amount of work. That they generously give their time etc to. Because they want to do something for girls.

I imagine there are loads of leaders like them. Why would they accept this massive change in remit etc? GG are taking the piss out of all the women on the ground who do all this because of the old remit. GG are idiots.

Yet another example of women being taken for granted.

Half the fucking population.

@Hathertonhariden

The old pledge did say do your best. Interesting to know why that was dropped

I would have thought it's obvious why that pledge has changed

There's no problem with teaching kids to think of others before themselves. The problem is when less emphasis is put on this for sons than for daughters. In a community where everyone has been brought up to think of others before themselves, the vulnerable are protected and everyone contributes according to their abilities and receives according to their needs. It's not a recipe for being a doormat if you can be confident that whilst you are thinking of other people's needs before yourself, other people are thinking of your needs before themselves.

I guess the "missing" principle (which is hard to teach to a group of 8 year olds) is that it is important to learn to distinguish between wants and needs, and to not be ashamed to communicate your own needs clearly.

Like PP said upthread, the default state for most kids is to be incredibly self-centred and oblivious to the needs of others so anything thar helps redress this is good. The brownies are not at fault but maybe the cubs aren't putting enough effort into promoting the same concept.