Men fighting in the gym

[IceLace100]

Just went to my local Pure gym. I was running a 5k when an argument turned into a fight at the weights machines.

15-20 men in their teens 20s and 30s.

Squaring off, shouting, people pushing and shoving and escalating to punching, some people holding others back etc etc.

I alerted all the people in a world of their own with headphones on then left, along with the majority of other people, (ALL the women left).

Question 1:
Why oh why do some men utterly fail to behave themselves in public spaces??? What the actual fuck is wrong with them. I just don't get it.

I mean, I was just trying to quietly run my 5k ffs.

I'm so fucked off. Since lockdown eased, I have joined 2 gyms. First gym a man shot another man right outside the entrance of it. I turned up one day to police vans and tape. So I stopped my membership and moved to puregym. Now there has been a fight there- is nowhere safe from male violence?

Question 2:
Shall I move gyms AGAIN and inconvenience myself by travelling further because of male violence? On one hand why the fuck should I have to? On the other hard, I want to be safe.

For those of you thinking I should complain to pure gym, oh you worry, I have!

Even at Nuffield I wouldn't go into the main weights part. I was shown round when I first started and knew instantly its not for me in that part. I'd just collect a weight and go elsewhere. Too many pumped up on the verge of aggression men in there. Its really intimidating. Sad really.

Sorry you experienced this op. I'd have been really scared.

Oddly, I've found proper 'hardcore' gyms to be the best environments. Plenty of big guys who the average person might see as 'scary', but any bad behaviour is generally clamped down on as everybody knows each other and probably the owner, and any dickheads will be out in a flash. Most of these places are run by enthusiasts and not solely as commercial enterprises and I think this makes a big difference.

Would looking at the park runs or possibly seeing if you could get a running buddy so you could still run and have company for safety be an option? It’s free! I like gyms because I don’t feel safe running at night anymore I am sorry you had this experience and now feel you are unable to exercise safely in those venues. I don’t blame you for getting out of there and not feeling comfortable, I have been a pub landlady and there is a huge difference between a punch up and a mass brawl. It’s almost tribal they don’t care who is in the way, I used to lock my staff behind the bar and tell them to never get involved, I had a fucking enormous guard dog that I used to take in with me. That cleared it. In the pub it was generally speaking alcohol that was the fuel to the fire and usually younger men with something to prove or a dispute between two men who stirred up everybody to get it all to kick off because they couldn’t deal with their anger or aggression themselves.

Oh weird.

DH never had any difficulties like that.

I have a personal theory that the 'norms' for men are wonky.

They are I think still based off one study in the USA decades ago and did not have a very diverse range of participants.

Googling info (as you do when something like this is discovered) there are endless papers saying that there is a strong indication that the current 'norms' are way too narrow.

I think this might well be true as his was discovered by accident. He had no physical symptoms or issues. His personality is unchanged. His mood improvement is not massive etc.

He is and always has been calm, placid, gentle, patient. In 16 years I've seen him get angry maybe twice. And aggressive once. He was drunk.

His dad has the same personality.

So I do wonder. If for some men what is seen as very low. Is normal for them.

No proof obv but in my situation it feels pretty likely.

OR that aggression, getting very angry etc is more socialised.

I think there was a fair bit about that in testosterone rex iirc

From what I've read Testosterone Rex does seem to fly in the face of plenty of studies showing testosterone to influence fight or flight behaviour and aggression. But I'd need to read it properly to comment. But the author being a feminist and also s psychologist (not a neurologist) does make me wonder.

Violence isn't usually random and a random bloke won't usually attack you just because he's having an argument with somebody else.

Violence can be very random. Having been 'jumped' twice in my 20s for the heinous of walking down the road at night I tend to cross the road upon seeing groups of young drunk men these days. As for fighting blokes taking a swing at some random nearby punter it happens all the time. In my yoof I spent a summer working in a certain south coast seaside town that was popular with hen and stag dos and I saw first hand mass brawls in the street when pissed up dickheads just went mental at any poor fucker who happend to be nearby. It was not uncommon to see drunk women scrapping but that rarely involved bystanders.

Omg a feminist! Well you're right I'm sure it's all made up.

Or.

It's full of fascinating results of loads of studies with comprehensive citations. Some of the results were very positive about men. From a feminist no less!

So if you haven't read it then dismissing it seems... Shortsighted.

My own googling threw up reams and reams of studies questioning whether the current T norms in men are appropriate. And calling for a good thorough review to see if changes should be made. That seems eminently reasonable.

Some men apparently function well on different amounts - e.g. having good sexual function on lowish levels. However, the 'scale' the UK uses is not fit for purpose IMO as it doesn't take age into consideration, so it might decide that an 18yo with the level on the typical 65yo is still within range, when really he will have the sex drive of a pensioner.

The British Society for Sexual Medicine suggets treating anything below 12 nmol. Lots of NHS trusts have the figure at 10 nmol, and yet others have it at 8 nmol. Even at 12 a young guy will usually be feeling pretty flat as the average for a 45yo is something like 20.

That's simply not true.

The range is dependent on age groupings to take into account the natural decline in age.

DH was shown a table at that same appt to show the norms for his age range, and that his reading was lower than even the norms for a man over. 70 or 80 or something.

Where in earth did you get the idea that is not done in the NHS?

On their sites the tables are available- many trusts publish them. And they all are age banded.

So.

Are you making things up?
Are you believing incorrect info from somewhere without checking? You had said you looked into it due to partner though.
Are you giving out incorrect info deliberately?
Something else?

@NiceGerbil

Omg a feminist! Well you're right I'm sure it's all made up.

Or.

It's full of fascinating results of loads of studies with comprehensive citations. Some of the results were very positive about men. From a feminist no less!

So if you haven't read it then dismissing it seems... Shortsighted.

My own googling threw up reams and reams of studies questioning whether the current T norms in men are appropriate. And calling for a good thorough review to see if changes should be made. That seems eminently reasonable.

No offence but a lot of feminists seem to have agendas. As I said, I won't fully discount the book without reading it.

When you say 'norms' do you mean normal levels or behaviour? I think male stereotypes should be taken with a pinch of salt but I'd be wary to involve too much identity theory in endocrinology. You wouldn't want to go see an endocrinologist and tell them you'd 'lost your mojo' to have them respond "Oh, well perhaps you're mistaken about what constitutes a man. Men don't have to be assertive, etc, or driven, or have alpha tendencies, blah blah".

Most men seem to be acutely aware of something changing over time when they get low T and lose their mojo so I'd hate a situation where they were gaslighted into thinking they had false expectations etc.

I know you didn't suggest that but it just sprung to mind.

The range is dependent on age groupings to take into account the natural decline in age.

No, the range is literally two figures like 8-27 nmol and you are either below or above. The age groupings just sounds like a doctor who knows what they're doing and is looking at it properly. With my partner they initially refused because he was just above the bottom of the range whilst still being half the normal level of somebody ten years his senior.

From NHS Bristol guidelines. Note that the bottom figure (8.7) is a fair bit below the 12 nmol which the BSSM recommends as the lower cutoff. Most young guys will feel pretty crap on 12 as I think the average for a 45yo male is something like 21 nmol.

I thought you were in Birmingham?!

Anyway. From your link-

'Testosterone levels decline 1% per year from the age of 30 years and Roche
quote an age related reference range –
TT 20-49y 8.7-29 nmol/L

50y 6.7-26 nmol/L
cFT 20-49y 0.2-0.64 pmol/L
50y 0.2-0.47 pmol/L
However, guidelines for the elderly population define a ‘low testosterone’ as below
that of the young healthy adult male reference range.
A symptom-based study (Wu et al, 2010) defined late onset hypogonadism as the
presence of at least 3 sexual symptoms and a fT 40y.'

Your statement that age is ignored in the NHS is not true.

Well done for finding a trust that is not your own with something that you decided was proof otherwise. Without, obviously, reading it properly.

I suppose time is of the essence while hunting in Google in the middle of s thread!

And this really shows a common issue on internet conversation.

I am here to discuss, listen, share my views.
Others are here to win the 'argument'.

You say the NHS don't do age bands. Full stop.
I say yes they do I have seen them.

Discussion- I didn't know that, that's really interesting. I need to look at the trust in Birmingham. See what they do. If they don't do that then they're out of step. Maybe I'll raise it with them. Inconsistency like that is pretty poor. It's good that some/ most men are getting the age banded approach.

Win 'debate' - Google Google LOOK! this one trust says this! Take that! And I'm going to ignore that I said the NHS full stop. And hope no one notices! Gotcha!

The second gets nowhere.

You're not pleased that you were wrong. I would have thought it would be reassuring. You're angry at being pulled up on your statement and so move the goalposts.

As per the getting the fuck out.
Well I'm from Birmingham was particularly weak 'argument'. And you decided to declare that the whole of Birmingham was so constantly full of groups of men brawling that no one even turned a hair. Just to make a point.

Why do you do this? Out of interest. No one thinks wow Birmingham eh? Well then. They all think it's a very silly thing to say. To try and back up a very strange position. That when a bunch of men start attacking each other with intent in an enclosed space. It's attention seeking to leave.

It was the first NHS doc that popped up. It was just to demonstrate that the range is two figures - an upper and lower.

You obviously had a better doctor. My partner's one declined to treat him despite being below all of the NHS ranges I could find - went by the lab range apparently. His private doc wrote a letter outlining the BHSS recommendations and pointing out that it had greatly benefited his life.

The response was "we'd like to help a lot of people if money was no object, but unfortunately it is". It sounded like he was suggesting that my partner should just accept impotence in his early 30s to save the NHS £15 a month.

It was actually a different (female) GP that put him on the NHS and he hadn't even asked - she enquired why he was private. However, now we've moved again our new GP has referred him to an NHS endo who wants to make loads of changes. E.g. wants him to inject every 2-3 weeks rather than weekly just because that's the standard NHS protocol, but this is now known to cause peaks and troughs so partner isn't keen.

Also wants him to come completely off to get a baseline reading, although he already has two from the private doc and one from the NHS. My partner protested as his job requires him to not feel crap (heavy plant machinery and trucks etc) and doc now says he'll instead lower it over a year or two, which I think is worse. He has already admitted it's unlikely to just bounce back at 40 if it was so low when nearer 30, and also given that all the pituitary tests were done too and found nothing. Just seems like pointless hoop jumping so may well end up going private and paying through the nose again.

But if you googled one then why not Birmingham?

And do you accept that your statement that NHS does not use age banding full stop is simply incorrect?

@NiceGerbil

And this really shows a common issue on internet conversation.

I am here to discuss, listen, share my views.
Others are here to win the 'argument'.

You say the NHS don't do age bands. Full stop.
I say yes they do I have seen them.

Discussion- I didn't know that, that's really interesting. I need to look at the trust in Birmingham. See what they do. If they don't do that then they're out of step. Maybe I'll raise it with them. Inconsistency like that is pretty poor. It's good that some/ most men are getting the age banded approach.

Win 'debate' - Google Google LOOK! this one trust says this! Take that! And I'm going to ignore that I said the NHS full stop. And hope no one notices! Gotcha!

The second gets nowhere.

You're not pleased that you were wrong. I would have thought it would be reassuring. You're angry at being pulled up on your statement and so move the goalposts.

As per the getting the fuck out.
Well I'm from Birmingham was particularly weak 'argument'. And you decided to declare that the whole of Birmingham was so constantly full of groups of men brawling that no one even turned a hair. Just to make a point.

Why do you do this? Out of interest. No one thinks wow Birmingham eh? Well then. They all think it's a very silly thing to say. To try and back up a very strange position. That when a bunch of men start attacking each other with intent in an enclosed space. It's attention seeking to leave.

What the fuck are you going on about? You're the one trying to win an argument.

The NHS has a range with an upper/lower figure and I played a document demonstrating this. Just because you were shown a table outlining the average level for each she group doesn't change that.

As I said, my partner was declined initially at 33yo for being just within the range, despite his level being typical of 85-100 yo. I printed all the tables and gave them to him to show his GP and the guy didn't give a shit.

But if you googled one then why not Birmingham?

Believe me I've tried dozens of times over the past few years. Today though I just posted the first one as it shows what I was talking about, which is that the range is just a range with no separate brackets.

Your case may be different but my partner's age want taken into consideration. He ws refused treatment whilst having the level of a man almost on his deathbed.

The link showed a range.

I looked into it before and was googling t range etc. Many NHS sites publish age range.

Your assertion that the NHS does not use age ranges at all. Is incorrect.

I don't care about 'winning'.

I care about posts which give firm statements that are not true.

Almost on his deathbed?

So males who suppress testosterone are playing with fire.

Crikey.

How did things pan out for eunuchs in the old days? Castrati?

You said his testosterone was not massively out of line.

Have you ruled out other issues? That sounds really scary.

Oh sorry.

You didn't mean he was on his deathbed! Massive apologies.

When you said man almost on deathbed you meant old?

That's an unusual way to describe old men so sorry I didn't understand what you meant initially.

NiceGerbil, what do you get out of spamming so many threads with multiple replies?
At least give people a chance to reply before you post again.