Religion & Social Justice Issues

[TryingHarderToday]

I wasn't sure where to put this thread but this seemed like a good place due to the involvement of religious-based organisations in women's rights issues.

I have been musing on the topic of religious involvement within social justice issues, and whether there is a place for it. Think Christian missions and things like that. My instinct is to be repulsed, if I'm honest: sanctimonious privileged youth being sent to 'help' poorer, oppressed people for a 'limited' period, preaching to them the whole time, and then feeling altruistic about themselves for the rest of their lives just doesn't sit well with me. It feels like the oppressed/under-privileged are being used to prop up someone's ego. But I was wondering if other people had any different views on this to try and balance how I am feeling and perhaps come to a more rounded conclusion. Is this position unfair? Is the trade-off worth it for the issues involved? Or does it depend on the degree of preaching/potential conversion vs amount of help provided?

To make it more specific to this board, this seems to be pretty common with Evangelicals in America, with missions to 'help' prostituted women, third world pregnancies etc. Other religions and issues also applicable. There is a long history of this, of course. Technically America was founded on this sort of thing.

Any personal experiences, or any links to decent papers or articles on this topic would also be appreciated.

Thank you

[Orf1abc]

White saviour complex.

David Lammy highlighted the issue, and many deemed him racist as a result. I think he was right to talk about it.

[Babdoc]

I think it’s beyond hypocrisy for atheists to condemn Christians for helping people in need, while doing nothing themselves.
My small village church raised the money to rebuild three houses destroyed by the Nepal earthquake, paid to fund the children of poverty struck farmers in Malawi through high school, raised money to bring clean water and sanitation to African villages, along with supporting the work of Christian Aid and funding our own missionary who is also a trained obstetrician helping to cut maternal mortality in Pakistan.
The recipients of our aid are told that it comes with our love and in the name of Christ. They seem more than grateful to receive it.

[SmokedDuck]

I don't really see that as any different than other kinds of secular groups that send young people to do good works in far off places. Which are pretty common, right from the Peace Corps days.

In many ways the good that comes out of these kinds of projects is about getting young people who live a fairly privileged life to live for a time in a different kind of place, and to develop relationships with the people living there. The programs that try and accomplish that are typically the best ones.

Many programs of this type though don't really accomplish that and they often aren't all that helpful to the people who are supposed to be helped. Sometimes it's cynically trying to capture a certain market of wealthy parents who can send their kids on these things, or it's "sanctimonious" but more often, it's people who want to help but just not very well thought out.

There is something rather unattractive about lambasting people for their privilege, and making them out to be the recipients of colonial advantage, while also not allowing them to want to help out, and not just by giving money, but by making connections and working with their own hands.

[DaisyWaldron]

You are picking up on one particular type of organisation, but a lot of grass-roots activism is supported by churches, too, and organisations such as the Joseph Rowntree Trust and the Trussell Trust which help fight poverty are also religion based.

I strongly disapprove of using helpings others as way of converting them, but if someone's faith includes an obligation to help overturn injustice, free the oppressed and help people who are suffering, then doing it together as a community makes sense.

[TryingHarderToday]

To be clear, I don’t have anything against religious people who also want to help others. I’m talking specifically about helping as a MISSION that includes ‘spreading the word’, which the mind to ‘save’ and convert.

[SuperLoudPoppingAction]

I think your op and title are a bit unclear, in that case.

[Blibbyblobby]

There is a Jehovah's Witness mission near us. Young adults from other countries come here to convert the English heathens

What I've realised talking to them over the years is that despite what the young people think they are here for, the real objective in sending them on "missions" isn't to convert us heathens at all, it's to solidify the young people's own identification with the church. They are dislocated from their own lives and dropped in an environment where everyone else is a JW and a missionary so all the new bonds they form are in that context, and every time they go out to evangelise, they reinforce their own self image as a JW.

[54321nought]

@Orf1abc

White saviour complex.

David Lammy highlighted the issue, and many deemed him racist as a result. I think he was right to talk about it.

Why is it to be sneered at if the person who wants to help other people happens to be white?

[StillWeRise]

@Blibbyblobby

There is a Jehovah's Witness mission near us. Young adults from other countries come here to convert the English heathens

What I've realised talking to them over the years is that despite what the young people think they are here for, the real objective in sending them on "missions" isn't to convert us heathens at all, it's to solidify the young people's own identification with the church. They are dislocated from their own lives and dropped in an environment where everyone else is a JW and a missionary so all the new bonds they form are in that context, and every time they go out to evangelise, they reinforce their own self image as a JW.

that's interesting and makes total sense
I saw a documentary once about the mormons, who also send their young people on missions (in this case to Leeds from somewhere in the US) - it was very shocking how they were treated- never allowed to be alone- not allowed to phone home- these were very young people (18 ish) and I thought it was completely abusive. But it figures that they would then identify more closely with the religion.
On the other hand, I have visited a few times a village in Africa where the hospital was founded by the Catholic church and still operated by them. This affects the treatments they offer (bad). But- who else was building hospitals in remote regions 50 years ago?

[SmokedDuck]

@TryingHarderToday

To be clear, I don’t have anything against religious people who also want to help others. I’m talking specifically about helping as a MISSION that includes ‘spreading the word’, which the mind to ‘save’ and convert.

Do you have a problem with non-religious groups who try and bring their ideas and values to other cultures? Marxists, for example, who try and bring their message to non-European countries? Or people who want to convince other cultures to adopt western views on feminism?

[TryingHarderToday]

@SmokedDuck I don’t have an issue with ideas, when freely given without expectation of compliance, or dangled like a carrot in the form of bribery.

I just don’t see how it’s remotely freeing, or kind, to be saying ‘if you follow my indoctrination I will help you.’

[SmokedDuck]

That would, today, be a rather unusual thing to find in most Christian mission projects. Did some specific example prompt your post?

In the past, people didn't really see freedom as something exercised mainly through individualistic choice, rather they considered that a person entering a framework where they had a true understanding of the wold to be more free than a person who was operating from a flawed perspective. So they were more likely to believe there was real benefit to pushing people towards what they considered to be a true framework for thought and action, and a more freeing way of life.

You can see a similar way of thinking even now with some social justice initiatives. They may feel that even if a population adopts a principle mainly because it's being imposed from outside - say better health care or education for girls or having them marry later, something along those lines - the effect of that over time will be beneficial not only to the girls, but will work to change the thinking on certain kinds of injustice in society as a whole. And yet there is absolutely a sense of knowing better that a group has to have in order to try and impose ideas or even influence their own values on another culture in this way.

[Mango1982]

David lammy is a racist 🤷‍♀️

[Pastrydame]

I just don’t see how it’s remotely freeing, or kind, to be saying ‘if you follow my indoctrination I will help you.’
Name a Christian charity (or a Muslim or Sikh one) that will only help people of that faith.

[TryingHarderToday]

@SmokedDuck Yes. Someone I know has been talking to me about her evangelical missions. In essence, people are helped, but they are preached to. The specific example is prostitution in Asian countries.

Your comments have been really helpful because I’m trying to figure out why my gut reaction is to be completely repulsed. On the one hand, help is help. But the idea of using vulnerable people in order to impose a specific message is just horrible to me.

[TryingHarderToday]

@Pastrydame That’s not what I’m saying

[Pastrydame]

So what does "if you follow my indoctrination I will help you" mean then?

[Steakandcheeseplease]

Its an interesting one. if one group is pushing hard on converting then they shouldn't be.

However religions do incredible work to help people, not all are like this.

My friend is the wife of a Pastor. She is lovely. She set up a walk in play area and coffee morning at the back of their church. Which turned in to them setting up a huge play area which is used by the community. Any monies raised goes back in to the community and which is deprived. Its wonderful inside and there is a massive wooden Noahs arc that you can sit in by the cafe and eat your lunch. My kids when younger loved it. However my only 'eye roll' was when they they did story time corner it was biblical stories they told. Although you are free to not let your kids listen and enjoy the rest of the place.

People that are enthusiastic about their religion/beliefs will always want to talk about them

[Steakandcheeseplease]

I do have experience of one person who was heavily in to religion (family members relative) and I wasn't allowed to there dds wedding as I was heavily pregnant at 16

Their DD was also called for 'meeting' as she had played Maddona at a school event and their had been complaints

[TryingHarderToday]

@Steakandcheeseplease Thanks. Your community example is a good one. I think lots of religions do wonderful work, and I don’t have an issue with them specifying that the thing they are raising funds for is kept within the realm of their religion.

But that feels very different to me, from a mission that is targeting very vulnerable women who are very desperate, and then pulling the religion card like w rabbit out of a hat. Things like: we will give you a meal, but now you’re eating I will lecture you about finding Christ, or we will lead you to this safe house, but now you’re here we expect you to join in prayer. Or: we will be kind to you and listen to your plight but when we find out you are pregnant we will put a heap of pressure on for you not to have an abortion.

It just feels underhanded and dirty to me.

I’m in two minds about how I feel about the volunteers themselves. They’re often very young and have been raised in fundamentally religious households. But the whole vibe of ‘we will save you’ just feels so wrong.

[TryingHarderToday]

@Pastrydame The above may help. I’m not trying to argue against religion, I’m trying to sort out how I feel about this particular mode of ‘charity’.

[sharksarecool]

If someone is Christian then they will genuinely believe that Christianity is true offers people the most fulfilment in life. I don't see what's wrong with thrm wanting to share that information with lots of different types of people. Its not like they're hypnotising or brainwashing people.

I dont know of any orgsnisation which says they will only help people who convert their religion, and I think they are generally upfront about being s Christian organisation, so they don’t suddenly surprise people by talking about it. Any "outreach" events I've seen have been upfront about their intentions, e.g. "There will be games, puppets and a free bbq. At 2pm there will be a short presentation on the Christian faith". I dont see the problem

[Needawayout]

This reminds me of the operation Christmas child shoeboxes.

I found out after filling one that the boxes go to a warehouse where they are opened and have Christian literature put in. That the children are expected to watch a video about Jesus before being given the gifts. Lots of other issues about who the boxes went to as well.

I felt conflicted as I really wanted to help but disliked the overt proselytising especially to young children.

I try to seek out ways to help that don't have a religious element now.

[Mango1982]

@Needawayout my child has to endure secular and progressive proselytising in order to gain a state education and forces are busy trying to show horn in CRT and QUEER idilogy

[Needawayout]

Lol there are just so many things that are wrong with that statement I am not even going to try to pick it apart. Better things to do with my day. Thanks for the laugh though !