looking an Afgani woman in the eyes, what connects their suffering with our struggles here?

[Freedomprogramme]

this is not a trick question (not burqua-related).

having dealt with lifelong sexism and one powerful male abuser I have got used to thinking that as a woman I deal with structural problems

right now my mind is blown by what's happening to the women of Afganistan. part of me thinks "my struggles don't count in comparison". I know that's not right - that there is a connection - but I'm too shocked by what's going on there to be able to formulate any coherent thoughts on the matter.

Can anyone help?

Isn’t it all part of the same struggle. Obviously one end is more extreme than the other but all misogyny.

A shared vulnerability in the face of endemic male violence. I think this connects us all, everywhere you look. The way it manifests may be different, the violence more or less extreme or obvious, but its a common thread.

The similarity is that the structure has been developed and is controlled by men. I am watching what is happening with complete shock and trying to get my head around the idea that millions of women who yesterday had the right to autonomy, independence both financial and personal, built careers etc. Tomorrow will not have those rights, will be made to wear particular clothes, be escorted by men, no right to work even if they somehow manage to get an education and essentially will be captive in their homes. Is this likely to happen in our country? No. Is it possible? Yes - definitely. I cant get my thoughts straight on it but won’t sleep tonight thinking about those poor women.

I spent last week trying to get a women who may well die at the hands of her abuser into safe housing. It's not happening to me, right now. But the threat is there. And the system doesn't work for women to a greater or lesser extent everywhere. It starts at 'vaguely almost OK' in Scandi countries to 'WTAF' in other countries.

It doesn't take a lot to turn Kabul 1960 into Kabul tomorrow. Or the former Yugoslavia into somewhere mass rape was committed. Modern cultures can get medieval very quickly. There are men here who would be doing what those men are doing there. If they had a platform.

I am so distressed about the situation in Afghanistan.
My own problems (which are many) pale into insignificance.
I just don't know what I can do.
Who do I write to?
Where can I donate?

It is men.
It is all down to men.
I can't stand it.

Testosterone fuelled oppressors threaten women across the world.

When misogyny is combined with restricted education and a male-led religious, authoritarian ruling structure,
women have no chance of a fair life.

So if the USA are going home and the Taliban are in control, what did the USA actually achieve in the past 20 years with their "war on terror"?

@MargaritaPie

So if the USA are going home and the Taliban are in control, what did the USA actually achieve in the past 20 years with their "war on terror"?

They boosted their economy so that rich men could make more billions of dollars.

And bonus, have an enemy that 'doesn't look like us' so that people didn't look up at the real issue.

They boosted their economy so that rich men could make more billions of dollars.

And bonus, have an enemy that 'doesn't look like us' so that people didn't look up at the real issue.

I think LadyArias (she is from Afghan) posts on the Taliban enter Kabul thread are very interesting.

I keep thinking of the handmaidens tale. When I read the book I wondered what was supposed to be going on in the rest of the world, outside of Gilead? Why was no one helping?
I understand the reasons for pulling out to an extent but it is very fishy how suddenly this has happened. If we do nothing there will be severe repercussions down the line for the west surely? It isn't going to stay contained in Afghanistan. It's just creating bigger problems for the future. I think there must be an ulterior motive, otherwise this wouldn't be happening.

My prayers are with all those poor women and children. If I had one wish right now it would be to airlift them all out of there.

Imagine having some semblance of freedom after years and years of fighting for it to then just be snatched away overnight. They must feel they're living in a nightmare.

One poster said her auntie in Kabul is insisting everything is fine and that it's all media lies - her daughters are at uni. As if it's going to stay that way...

As to what connects my personal suffering with an Afghani woman? Nothing. I can't even imagine what they're going through, how terrified they must be.
We are so lucky to live in the west - I only pray it stays that way. With women's rights being eroded left right and centre who's to say where we will be in 20 years time?

Just feeling completely helpless and sad.

Have a listen to this morning’s thought of the day on radio4. Dr David Walker (Bishop of Manchester) rather neatly ties together the Taliban, the murders in Plymouth, incels, micro aggressions and the approach of much of organised religion. A shame that, as always, it’s a male voice that’s loudest, but I thought it was rather good.

looking an Afgani woman in the eyes, what connects their suffering with our struggles here?

The embodied reality of womanhood that transcends time, distance and cultures. She is me and I am her. It is a visceral bond that no male can ever identify into and no female can ever identify out of.

It is only an accident of fate that I live in the UK. I am one of the rare winners in the grotesque lottery of life.

Life for women in the UK has been shaped by its own cultural and religious heritage. Its relatively unique and rare historical trajectory enabled British women to organise and win incredible gains for their daughters in a way that women from so many other countries can only dream of doing.

The plight of Afghani women is a stark reminder of the iron fist of oppression that men can wield against women on the basis of our sex. It is an uncomfortable truth that without the majority of men on our side, women truly are at the mercy of the vicious whims and savage violence of men.

My heart breaks for the women of Afghanistan - so many of them had a taste of freedom, opportunity and being a person in their own right, and now it has evaporated almost overnight. I know what is happening to them could happen to me too, if circumstances enabled it. The incel attack in Plymouth reveals the deep hatred and desires of subjugation that some men harbour for women.

Far too many women in the UK take their precious freedoms for granted. Yes, there's much that can be better, but it's important to realise just how rare it is to live in a time and place where women have so many rights and protections within a stable, wealthy society and where most men view us as worthy of full personhood.

Some women are so intoxicated by these freedoms - freedoms they themselves did not win - that they think it's great fun to indulge in all kinds of outlandish luxury beliefs, such as biological sex being a social construct, women are not oppressed on the basis of sex, and that being a woman is nothing but a feeling and set of sexist stereotypes. They have feasted at the table of liberty for so long that they think they can ignore reality by chanting mantras and 'queering' words. Bloated by their gluttony, they cheer the erosion of the same rights and protections that enabled their arrogance and ignorance. Their fingers and mouths greasy with the remnants of the fruits of labour of the women that came before them, they sneer at those who understand the precarious nature of our rights and personhood and seek to protect it. They might belch out insults and smears in between mouthfuls, but deep in their hearts they know they would never willingly trade places with the women of Afghanistan, because all the queer theory in the world won't save them from the slaughterhouse.

Thank you for these replies - I am grateful that my clumsy words were understood.

Is there something we can do? Many of the women speaking to the BBC yesterday were - I think - speaking because they knew it might be the last time their voice was heard/their face was seen.

.... we had a Trump watch thread on here that lasted all through his presidency and was updated daily.

could we watch and listen for female voices from Afganistan and record them here (anonymously, obviously).

when you think about all the most successful strategies for resisting oppression long-term, it's about record-keeping.

also I'm thinking many of us are "word" people so it comes quite naturally.

"So if the USA are going home and the Taliban are in control, what did the USA actually achieve in the past 20 years with their "war on terror"?"

I was no supporter of the "war on terror" but a whole generation of girls grew up in at least some parts of Afganistan in relative freedom.
The intention was not to raise the lives of women and girls but that was the side effect.

Fantastic post Nonny

Wow @NonnyMouse1337 you are incredible writer. I agree with every word, thank you

@NonnyMouse1337

looking an Afgani woman in the eyes, what connects their suffering with our struggles here?

The embodied reality of womanhood that transcends time, distance and cultures. She is me and I am her. It is a visceral bond that no male can ever identify into and no female can ever identify out of.

It is only an accident of fate that I live in the UK. I am one of the rare winners in the grotesque lottery of life.

Life for women in the UK has been shaped by its own cultural and religious heritage. Its relatively unique and rare historical trajectory enabled British women to organise and win incredible gains for their daughters in a way that women from so many other countries can only dream of doing.

The plight of Afghani women is a stark reminder of the iron fist of oppression that men can wield against women on the basis of our sex. It is an uncomfortable truth that without the majority of men on our side, women truly are at the mercy of the vicious whims and savage violence of men.

My heart breaks for the women of Afghanistan - so many of them had a taste of freedom, opportunity and being a person in their own right, and now it has evaporated almost overnight. I know what is happening to them could happen to me too, if circumstances enabled it. The incel attack in Plymouth reveals the deep hatred and desires of subjugation that some men harbour for women.

Far too many women in the UK take their precious freedoms for granted. Yes, there's much that can be better, but it's important to realise just how rare it is to live in a time and place where women have so many rights and protections within a stable, wealthy society and where most men view us as worthy of full personhood.

Some women are so intoxicated by these freedoms - freedoms they themselves did not win - that they think it's great fun to indulge in all kinds of outlandish luxury beliefs, such as biological sex being a social construct, women are not oppressed on the basis of sex, and that being a woman is nothing but a feeling and set of sexist stereotypes. They have feasted at the table of liberty for so long that they think they can ignore reality by chanting mantras and 'queering' words. Bloated by their gluttony, they cheer the erosion of the same rights and protections that enabled their arrogance and ignorance. Their fingers and mouths greasy with the remnants of the fruits of labour of the women that came before them, they sneer at those who understand the precarious nature of our rights and personhood and seek to protect it. They might belch out insults and smears in between mouthfuls, but deep in their hearts they know they would never willingly trade places with the women of Afghanistan, because all the queer theory in the world won't save them from the slaughterhouse.

That sent chills down my spine.

You are fabulous writer.

And yes, everything can turn on a dime when our freedom depends upon men.

I am asking all the people currently hand wringing about the women in Afghan like James o Brian if the women can identify out of the abuse that’s to come
You never get a answer

when you think about all the most successful strategies for resisting oppression long-term, it's about record-keeping.

That is very true and an important insight. It is one of the many reasons for keeping history. History is memory. Memories and history provide the sure and certain knowledge that things have been different and that it worked: the sure and certain knowledge, for feminists, that women have founded and worked in crafts, have fought and led wars and nations in peacetime, have kept the factories going through war efforts. All this belies the basic principle of male oppression, that women are helpless nothings who need male guidance and repression for civilisation to stand.

So we keep records of women doing these things against the tendency of men to sideline us and forget.

There is an interesting fact check for on Biden’s recent statements at www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/politico-london-playbook-america-first-biden-fk-that-raab-and-patel-in-trouble/

For instance the idea that the US never intended any kind of regime change is shown up as, erm, not entirely accurate.

Yes I agree about the words, but also let’s also share and save the images. It’s so important that these women are SEEN as well as heard, we need to show as well as tell their stories.

but if they are seen
they will be punished for being seen
that's what we're talking about in 2021

That’s what I mean - before the images (I mean of actresses, singers, politicians, news anchors etc) can be mysteriously disappeared. Images of women walking together in the street, in hijab but not burqua, without male chaperones. Of women at universities, banks, offices - these are all things that existed before the last Taliban regime, but the world quickly forgot, seeming to think that hardline fundamentalism had always been ‘tradition’ in Afghanistan.

I remember being so stunned the first time I saw photographs of mini-skirted girls in Kabul in the 1970s and my MIL described travelling through there on the hippy trail.

If you see the images, you see that nothing more than an accident of geography separates women in one country from another. And that is why the images should be preserved.

Heather Sturr Phd has a great set of images here:

hmstur.wordpress.com/category/afghanistan-women-war/

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fhmstur.wordpress.com%2Fcategory%2Fafghanistan-women-war%2F&psig=AOvVaw1Rd3s_AmWwvTe4xiIebZTC&ust=1629292725880000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCJiqt8OSuPICFQAAAAAdAAAAABAI