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Feminism: chat

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Women's gymnastics at Olympics

130 replies

purplesequins · 26/07/2021 11:56

Tokyo Olympics: German women's gymnastics team wears full-body suits

well done them. they look great!
I really hope other countries follow suit. and soon. and also on county level.

OP posts:
VikingVolva · 27/07/2021 15:03

I agree - or at least, it should be. I just don't see any enjoyment of women's sports or sporting achievements on this or any other thread on this board. We are well into the first week on the biggest multi-sport event on the planet. Can you find any threads celebrating Team GB, or the events in general? The brilliance of the football team, the divers, the taekwondo, the dressage, the triathlete? All medal winners or finalists

Has anyone taken 30 seconds to type 'well done, fantastic achievement!'?

Topic is here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/tokyo_olympics_2021

Gymnastics thread in that topic

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/tokyo_olympics_2021/4307324-Women-s-gymnastics-team-final

This is one of the several threads about sports uniform requirements, and applauding the changes that came into force recently, and are being seen on olympians.

stickygotstuck · 27/07/2021 15:07

I agree, this thread is about the sexism in gymanstics attire, not about celebrating sporting achievement. Plus it was started before GB won its bronze (which by the way I saw live, well done those young women!)

Abraxan · 27/07/2021 15:10

@Bryonyshcmyony

I actually find it odd that they wear full leggings tbh. It looks very hot!
I doubt they will be too warm in an air conditioned gym.

The leotards are very revealing. If a woman feels uncomfortable wearing one then of course there should be an alternative. It isnt necessary to have so much of their body exposed if they would rather not.

JurgenKloppsCat · 27/07/2021 15:12

@VikingVolva

I agree - or at least, it should be. I just don't see any enjoyment of women's sports or sporting achievements on this or any other thread on this board. We are well into the first week on the biggest multi-sport event on the planet. Can you find any threads celebrating Team GB, or the events in general? The brilliance of the football team, the divers, the taekwondo, the dressage, the triathlete? All medal winners or finalists

Has anyone taken 30 seconds to type 'well done, fantastic achievement!'?

Topic is here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/tokyo_olympics_2021

Gymnastics thread in that topic

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/tokyo_olympics_2021/4307324-Women-s-gymnastics-team-final

This is one of the several threads about sports uniform requirements, and applauding the changes that came into force recently, and are being seen on olympians.

Thank you to you and others for the links. What I am learning is that any positive discussion of women's sporting achievements will not take place on a feminist board. Presumably the role models that these women are becoming have no place in feminist discussion. Not just in this thread - anywhere on either of the feminist boards. The fact that we want our daughters to take up more sports, to be healthier, to maybe achieve some of these incredible peaks of sporting prowess - it's not for here?
Bryonyshcmyony · 27/07/2021 15:13

Feel free to start a thread?

JurgenKloppsCat · 27/07/2021 15:15

@Bryonyshcmyony

Feel free to start a thread?
Nah. There's no interest.
Emma281 · 27/07/2021 15:28

Can I give a mention to Georgia Taylor Brown of the UK who took Silver in the triathlon.

Towards the end of her cycle her tyre punctured and from being a joint leader ended up 5th at the changeover. She had a fantastic run and ended up 2nd. An absolutely phenomenal achievement and a role model to everyone - girls and boys.

FWIW (not that it matters but we are discussing attire on here) she wore a knee length triathlon suit whereas some competitors wore a traditional swimsuit with no legs covered. It's all about the choice though.

TinselAngel · 27/07/2021 15:34

Has anyone taken 30 seconds to type 'well done, fantastic achievement!'?
I very much doubt the young girls in our gymnastics team are Mumsnetters.

Emma281 · 27/07/2021 15:37

@TinselAngel

Has anyone taken 30 seconds to type 'well done, fantastic achievement!'? I very much doubt the young girls in our gymnastics team are Mumsnetters.
You never know. Or they may have family on here. 🙂
TinselAngel · 27/07/2021 15:44

If you wanted to congratulate them, I still think there would be more reliable ways to do it than posting on MN.

stickygotstuck · 27/07/2021 16:18

Jurgen
Nah. There's no interest

Nah, you're just in the wrong section of the forum. I believe that's called derailing.

From where I am standing, it looks as if it's you who does not want to acknowledge the positives in this discussion - the fact that women are finally taking a stand and refusing to wear clothing that makes them uncomfortable.

Estasala · 28/07/2021 08:57

@JurgenKloppsCat

For the few that actually care about the sport rather than policing what women should or should not be allowed to do - the Team GB women have just won an Olympic bronze medal. A minor achievement, but I thought a few might enjoy the news.
I think that most people were celebrating that there was now LESS policing of what women wear and more options available. And several people mentioned that they were former gymnasts or enjoyed the sport.

My DD is a young gymnast. I think what the German team has done is fabulous for women's sport. How many young gymnasts have quit or felt humiliated by wearing leotards?

This is a really positive thing for feminism and for female gymnasts. I'm not sure why you're upset at the thread or the topic.

Estasala · 28/07/2021 09:11

@TinselAngel

Has anyone taken 30 seconds to type 'well done, fantastic achievement!'? I very much doubt the young girls in our gymnastics team are Mumsnetters.
The first post on this actual thread literally says, "Well done"!!
Shedbuilder · 28/07/2021 09:30

@Emma281

I agree about the unitards being a step forward and it is important for all athletes to have a choice.

I do go back to the point I made before though. There are several sports where men wear considerably less than women. Look at Diving (they are almost naked), swimming (not allowed to cover their tops) and Water Polo (almost naked too) whereas their female counterparts wear much more.

Outfits have evolved differently for different sports but it doesn't mean for sexist reasons necessarily. I'm all for choice but I would ask you to consider that boys /men actually receive a much rougher end of the stick than the media would have us all believe.

This is an irrelevant observation —because men's bodies aren't sexualised in the way that women's bodies are sexualised, and swimmers spend most of their time in the water, not cavorting around doing the splits and exposing their buttocks in gymnastic moves. This is the feminism board and that's feminism 101.

Just because gymnastics have always been this way doesn't mean they have to go on being this way. I'm in camp unitard/ no music/ no need to display arses and jiggle breasts as if on a strip club stage.

Pagwatch · 28/07/2021 15:54

@Emma281

The picture you linked for swimming showed the women in competition suits and the men in training trunks

The mens completion suits are, like the womens , based around resistance through the water
The guys suits are similarly fitted from hip to knee. They take ages to get in to and are about efficiency not appearance.
If the guys could swim faster with a full body suit they’d be pushing for one

Women's gymnastics at Olympics
purplesequins · 28/07/2021 16:06

If the guys could swim faster with a full body suit they’d be pushing for one

they did a few years ago, but regulations were brought in to stop the 'technicisation' of equipment.

OP posts:
Bitofachinwag · 28/07/2021 16:50

OT but The men doing diving wear very small swimming trunks! I wonder how they stay on.

Marguerite2000 · 28/07/2021 19:19

I wonder how they stay on
You have absolutely no idea, do you?

Bitofachinwag · 28/07/2021 19:28

@Marguerite2000

I wonder how they stay on You have absolutely no idea, do you?
Hmmm, no, should I? Tape?
patkinney · 28/07/2021 21:25

[quote Pagwatch]@Emma281

The picture you linked for swimming showed the women in competition suits and the men in training trunks

The mens completion suits are, like the womens , based around resistance through the water
The guys suits are similarly fitted from hip to knee. They take ages to get in to and are about efficiency not appearance.
If the guys could swim faster with a full body suit they’d be pushing for one[/quote]
Didn't that happen a few years ago - super smooth full body suites and all the world records were getting broken, so they banned them. Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

purplesequins · 28/07/2021 21:38

Didn't that happen a few years ago - super smooth full body suites and all the world records were getting broken, so they banned them. Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

no it isn't. they were banned in 2009.

OP posts:
2Rebecca · 28/07/2021 22:24

The men's diving shorts staying on surprises me too. I remember diving in to a pool in a bikini and my bottoms ending up round my ankles. I can't believe having a penis in there really keeps them in place.
I think leotards for gymnastics makes more sense than lycra down to your ankles. I personally would favour a leotard ending mid thigh though so you don't have to shave if you don't want to.
I like the music for the floor routine and the women's routines and gym equipment being different to the men's. I can imagine some women might prefer a more tumbly routine and to have a go at the pommel horse and some men fancying a go at the beam or asymmetric bars but male bodies are different to female ones and gymnastics tends to emphasise that although it can slip in to parody.

nettie434 · 29/07/2021 00:02

I am so impressed with the achievements of the Olympic athletes but I still worry about the impact on them of constantly being judged in terms of their appearance.

This takes two forms. The first is the pressure from coaches. The report of an enquiry into British Gymnastics next month about allegations of abuse in British Gymnastics. Over 400 submissions were received, and some of them are quite horrifying. One former gymnast says she developed an eating disorder after public daily weighings.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/gymnastics/56334002

It's also worth remembering the staggering scale of sexual abuse US gymnasts experienced from the team doctor Larry Nasser.

The second thing is the social media trolling they receive. Of course we now male athletes get it too but the scale is awful:

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/53430686

For me, the actions of the German and Norwegian teams are hopeful signs that women athletes are trying to achieve more control over the way they compete. However, I do worry how much has changed when the US team said Simone Biles would be assessed daily to see whether she could compete. No, it's not about her competing; it's about her mental health.

patkinney · 31/07/2021 03:43

@stickygotstuck

Jurgen Nah. There's no interest

Nah, you're just in the wrong section of the forum. I believe that's called derailing.

From where I am standing, it looks as if it's you who does not want to acknowledge the positives in this discussion - the fact that women are finally taking a stand and refusing to wear clothing that makes them uncomfortable.

Excellent article from Jessica Ennis-Hill in the paper today, not gymnastics as such (she does mention the German unitards), but definitely related to the topic under discussion:

www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2021/07/30/lived-fear-wardrobe-malfunction-athletes-should-able-wear/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr

"Watching the German women’s gymnastics team compete in full unitards this week was incredible. In a sport that has suffered from horrendous and sickening stories of abuse, it was such a brave and pioneering decision to take that stance on a global stage. Those gymnasts have initiated an important conversation about the sexualisation of female athletes in sport, and how it relates to their kit.

From the story of Norway’s beach handball team threatened with being disqualified because they wanted to wear shorts rather than bikini briefs, to the black swimmers unable to wear swim caps to fit Afro hair, women are far too often penalised for their sports apparel when all anyone should be thinking about is their performance and how to help them be at their best.

When I first started competing, I wore running knickers – as is the norm in athletics – and I often felt self-conscious. As soon as you take one stride, they are up your bum. Doing the hurdles, when your legs are spreading, or in the high jump with the angle of the camera on you in inappropriate places, you cannot help but have a worried thought creep into your head. When you should be focusing on your performance, instead you are thinking, “Oh gosh, I don’t want to have my bum coming out”.

It takes away from feeling confident, and is an unfair distraction for women trying to compete. Ahead of London 2012, I had a lot of conversations about running knickers. At a time when you want to feel comfortable, dignified and supported by your kit, instead you feel at risk of being exposed to the world. That is why there is such an important conversation to be had between women athletes, governing bodies and kit manufacturers.

With Adidas, I remember giving them the feedback about running knickers and how they go up your bum. They did then make changes to the kit, bringing in the rubber sticky edges to help the knickers stay in place and changing the waistband to make it higher and in a fixed position. It is so important that athletes are asked how they feel in their kit, and particularly from the perspective of feeling sexualised. Why does it matter? Because, unfortunately, a kit malfunction can go viral and forever after that is what you are known for.

Like Gillian Cooke at the Vancouver Winter Olympics when her speed suit split as she pushed off in the bobsleigh with Nicola Minichiello. An incredible athlete at the top of her sport and that is the image that people remember. It just is not fair. In forcing women to wear skimpy kit, we also make them vulnerable to weight shaming. Whether being trolled for being “too thin”, as some British athletes have been, or criticised by coaches for being “too fat”, it is more of an issue for sportswomen than for men, who have a long vest and shorts so that you do not see every part of their body. For me, the comments about my weight right before London 2012 were frustrating.

Thankfully, I was at a point in my career where I did not feel insecure about how I looked, but to have those comments thrown around was so unhelpful when I was trying to win a medal. Honestly, I think it still happens a lot in sport, especially in middle-distance events and with young athletes. It can be really damaging and have a lifelong effect on your relationship with food and with your body. These are not issues that disappear when you retire, you are potentially setting up a dangerous and unhelpful cycle that can last for the rest of your life. The colour of a kit is a big issue, too.

Sometimes, the most obvious thing – like not using white for running knickers or shorts – gets lost in the design process. Often the kit is being designed by men, so there are issues that might easily be detected by speaking to women. For the 2012 Olympic kit, there was one sample with a white triangle in the bottoms, and a lot of female athletes said, “No way!” As a young girl in the English schools championships, I had to compete wearing white kit. It was ridiculous. A whole additional layer of stress at a time when you are already so self-conscious about your body, and especially periods.

White is the worst colour you could ever be asked to wear. To expect young girls to wear running knickers at all seems a lot. But in our sport, it is normalised. People outside of athletics will look at the kit we wear and say, “Wow, you wear almost nothing”. It is so skimpy it is uncomfortable. Young girls do not feel they can say no, because there is that pressure of expectation, no one wears long leggings or a long top. You want to fit in, look professional, it is human nature to want to conform.

There is more variety now than when I was competing – running knickers, hot pants and the leotard – but there still is not the option of long shorts or a full Cathy Freeman or Flo Jo all-in-one. It takes someone very confident and very bold, to come out and say, “I’m not wearing that”. It brings a lot of attention on you, for reasons that are not about your sport, that many athletes will not feel comfortable with. I can understand that.

As I got older, I stopped wearing running knickers for everything. It was affecting my confidence as I was thinking about it more than I should. I was more comfortable in shorts, so I wore them for the shot put, javelin and 800 metres. But it’s harder for a young athlete to make those decisions. You are going against the grain, which is only easier as an established athlete.

This feels like a pivotal Olympic Games when it comes to women speaking out. And the more female athletes use their voice, the more that others will have the confidence to join them. My hope is that women will feel empowered to speak out about their bodies and what they are happy to wear."

callinda · 31/07/2021 11:01

That's a really important article from Jessica. I'm glad more women are speaking out on this issue. I watched the women's diving tonight in absolute shock. The swimsuits were SO high cut at the front and the back. Almost complete buttocks hanging out. Surely this is not necessary. Imagine how many young women have given up sport because of this.

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