Women's gymnastics at Olympics

[purplesequins]

Tokyo Olympics: German women's gymnastics team wears full-body suits

well done them. they look great!
I really hope other countries follow suit. and soon. and also on county level.

@Innocenta,

I don’t!

But it is hard to take a ‘sexist’ element out of dance, something which many species do to attract a mate.

And why does the Olympics accept crap like ‘artistic gymnastics’ and exclude prime candidates like squash?

Hmmmm, wonder if the men who control it want to see young women in very little..

If you want to stamp out sexism, leotards are not the place to start.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Innocenta,

I don’t!

But it is hard to take a ‘sexist’ element out of dance, something which many species do to attract a mate.[/quote]
Do you think this when people go to see the Nutcracker at Christmas?

Keep the dance, drop the dance, I don’t much mind. Just make it the same for men and women 🤷‍♀️

The female sprinters sometimes look bling. Amazing hair, nails etc. But the difference is that they aren't judged on it - first over the line is first over the line. And some sprinters stay very plain and simple. Neither gives an advantage. If you say gymnasts aren't judged on appearance, why do they ALL wear heavy make up and bling?

@TheReluctantPhoenix

And why does the Olympics accept crap like ‘artistic gymnastics’ and exclude prime candidates like squash?

Hmmmm, wonder if the men who control it want to see young women in very little..

If you want to stamp out sexism, leotards are not the place to start.

Heads up that you can campaign for the inclusion of sports to the Olympics without diminishing the value of others. I have no interest in dressage (or squash for that matter) but I wouldn’t call them crap. I don’t assume that my opinions on sport are the right ones.

Yeah I could do without the dance. Tbh when they do those stupid twiddles after a totally awesome three double back pile curl or whatever it just looks like they are taking the piss

ive always believed gymnastics leotards are ridiculous. when my daughter was competing she and most of the girls would often train with the skin tight shorts over the top.
helping her compete through her first period was a particular low.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

And why does the Olympics accept crap like ‘artistic gymnastics’ and exclude prime candidates like squash?

Hmmmm, wonder if the men who control it want to see young women in very little..

If you want to stamp out sexism, leotards are not the place to start.

Artistic gymnastics this year has a markedly older field, with far fewer teenagers than in the years of Soviet and Romanian dominance. There are several hugely impressive athletes who are "old for gymnastics" in this Olympics, setting an incredible example and showing that it doesn't have to be a sport for young girls. I think you're really being quite disrespectful to dismiss it in such simplistic terms when you clearly don't know much about the history of the sport or how things have changed in various ways over the years.

I've followed gymnastics since I was little, since the days of the USSR dominance and other Eastern countries.

I personally always preferred the men's floor. I am not into dance although I can clearly see the artistry and difficulty. It's just that, since rhythmic gymnastics are a thing, I'd rather keep it (and the music) out of the artistic type. I see the women's floor as a hybrid. The men have ni music or dance and are also considered artistic. But that's just my personal opinion and taste.

About the attire, I have long believed the women's requirements are sexist abd unnecessary. I think shorts will be the preferred choice of many women gymnasts to come.

As for the men's unitard that a pp pointed out, totally irrelevant. The men are not forced to remove their shorts and preform in it. Men never perform in a unitard in gymnastics. Presumably because they'd feel unnecessarily exposed. Just like most young women do in a leotard.

DD quit gymnastics when she started menstruating and generally more body conscious because she was not allowed to wear shorts over her leotard in competitions. Just like boys do.

As for the badly designed running? gear in white, again, not comparable. That's a design flaw by a country's team, not a requirement of the rules.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Yeah I could do without the dance. Tbh when they do those stupid twiddles after a totally awesome three double back pile curl or whatever it just looks like they are taking the piss

In the past it was more integrated into the routine I think. And (depending on the routine) was either elegant and balletic, or happy and bouncy.

Now they're picking more modern music to dance to, which lends itself to more Latin style dancing with more hip movements, but also there's a lot more emphasis on the tumbling, because you get bigger marks for that, and the dance often looks a bit stuck in separately.

Obviously gymnastics in the past (and still today) has problems, but I think the dancing looks more in context in for example than some or the more recent ones.

Do the men do artistic dancey bits? We didn't see any when we watched the round up yesterday. The women were doing odd little shimmies at the end of their tumbles but the men just did tumbles

We did lose count of how many times the women were having to retrieve unitard from inside their bum cheeks. I'd imagine not having a constant wedgy would give anyone a competitive advantage.

@Dollpiglet

Do the men do artistic dancey bits? We didn't see any when we watched the round up yesterday. The women were doing odd little shimmies at the end of their tumbles but the men just did tumbles

We did lose count of how many times the women were having to retrieve unitard from inside their bum cheeks. I'd imagine not having a constant wedgy would give anyone a competitive advantage.

Difference women's floor is done to music, mens is not.

@stickygotstuck I totally respect your take on it! There are certainly people on the gymternet who don't love the musical and dance-y side of women's FX. But I also really regularly see people saying that they wish men's FX mandated music and more choreo - that's my personal view, but again, this comes down to taste, etc.

I don't have any problem at all with where anyone may be on the spectrum of gymternet opinions. But I think it's unnecessary for people to (for example) accuse a 16-year-old (that's how old the Gadirova twins are) of "lap dancing" merely for fulfilling the requirements of her sport effectively. It never crossed my mind for a second to interpret Gadirova's performance like that; people who are reading in sexual content are bringing it themselves.

One of the gymnasts performing in QF incorporated a Black Lives Matter pose into her choreo, in such a way that she could not be penalised for political protest (because it fulfilled a required element). That shows such creativity and political awareness from a young gymnast - really highlighting how they can work within the code to express themselves. I just think it's a shame that that gets lost amidst criticism of their makeup.

@Innocenta,

I am only dismissive of the artistic elements of gymnastics, not the rest of it.

I just think the Olympics is for sport.

Dance has its place, but not in the Olympics.

As soon as you put dance in, it will include ‘playful’ (I.e flirtatious) elements.

I'd personally be in favour of adding a and making the floor have more non-tumbling elements. It will never happen though!

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@Innocenta,

I am only dismissive of the artistic elements of gymnastics, not the rest of it.

I just think the Olympics is for sport.

Dance has its place, but not in the Olympics.

As soon as you put dance in, it will include ‘playful’ (I.e flirtatious) elements.[/quote]
But the sport is literally artistic. That's what the sport is. The style and form and 'look' is a part of how each apparatus is scored, not only floor. There is choreo / dance on beam as well.

Maybe it's just not your thing - that's fine. There is an entirely separate sport, tumbling, which you might enjoy more.

Not gymnastics but the Norwegian handball team got fined for wearing shorts instead of bikini bottoms. Pink offered to pay the fine 😂
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/music/2021/jul/26/pink-offers-to-pay-fines-for-norwegian-womens-beach-handball-team-sexist

It's not freedom to choose if you've spent years being raised in a sport culture telling you that women can only be judged accurately if they're nearly naked with heavy makeup, but that men can be judged accurately in baggy shorts/joggers without makeup.

Choices are not made in a vacuum. If you want female gymnasts to genuinely have the freedom to make real choices then the sexism and sexualisation needs to first be removed from the sport. Until that is done, nobody has freedom - neither those wearing sparkles nor those in unitards.

When people point out that women's gymnastics has sexualised dancing and essentially judgements on attractiveness, responding with "that's how it is" or "the men's competition isn't set to music" is not the defense you imagine.

It merely highlights the default sexism and way people have been socialised not to even see how sexist it is.

"It's normal for gymnastics" - yes, we are aware that sexism and sexualisation of female athletes has been normalised in gymnastics, but that doesn't make it acceptable or defensible.

Why do the men not have to dance and wink to show character? Don't just tell me that the men don't perform to music as if that makes it all ok, justify why that is the case for the men but not women.

Don't forget that women were initially excluded from the Olympics, and have only slowly been allowed to compete in restricted categories based on a continuation of that sexism and views of women as inferior athletes who are there for decorative purposes.

"The Olympics have always been sexist" is not a good reason why they should always be sexist.

@patkinney

I type this with with much trepidation, especially on MN and in this part of MN, but please read it and consider the view a serious one:

I was watching the Olympics round-up show on the BBC last night, part of which was women's gymnastics, which I do find incredible. At one point there was a very brief mention of one country campaigning against the over-sexualization of the sport: Germany and their unitards. I think more could have been said, but I suppose it was early in the evening (before 9 o'clock).

Anyway, they soon moved on to the GB women and they showed an excellent floor routine by Jennifer Gadirova (16) her acrobatic tumbles were superb, but in between, she did what I would only describe as lapdancing: loads of 'thrusting moves', over the shoulder coquettish looks and winking etc. I repeat she is 16 years of age. The commentator praised the routine saying it was 'full of character' and I was thinking, well that is one way to describe it, I suppose...

But seriously, how can they stamp out sexualization in the sport, with stuff like that going on? They didn't show any floor routine work from the German team, but I'd be interested to know if theirs was markedly different?

Completely agree with you, Pat Kinney. The male gymnasts have to demonstrate their strength and control in the slow bits, the women appear to have to demonstrate their coquettishness. Time it stopped. It's been glaringly obvious for years.

@user16395699

It's not freedom to choose if you've spent years being raised in a sport culture telling you that women can only be judged accurately if they're nearly naked with heavy makeup, but that men can be judged accurately in baggy shorts/joggers without makeup.

Choices are not made in a vacuum. If you want female gymnasts to genuinely have the freedom to make real choices then the sexism and sexualisation needs to first be removed from the sport. Until that is done, nobody has freedom - neither those wearing sparkles nor those in unitards.

When people point out that women's gymnastics has sexualised dancing and essentially judgements on attractiveness, responding with "that's how it is" or "the men's competition isn't set to music" is not the defense you imagine.

It merely highlights the default sexism and way people have been socialised not to even see how sexist it is.

"It's normal for gymnastics" - yes, we are aware that sexism and sexualisation of female athletes has been normalised in gymnastics, but that doesn't make it acceptable or defensible.

Why do the men not have to dance and wink to show character? Don't just tell me that the men don't perform to music as if that makes it all ok, justify why that is the case for the men but not women.

Don't forget that women were initially excluded from the Olympics, and have only slowly been allowed to compete in restricted categories based on a continuation of that sexism and views of women as inferior athletes who are there for decorative purposes.

"The Olympics have always been sexist" is not a good reason why they should always be sexist.

Agree totally with this.

But I think it's unnecessary for people to (for example) accuse a 16-year-old (that's how old the Gadirova twins are) of "lap dancing" merely for fulfilling the requirements of her sport effectively.

Why are those the requirements of her sport? And not her male peers' sport?

You are spectacularly missing the point (or deliberately constructing a strawman). The gymnast is not being criticised. The sport that imposes sexist requirements on women is being criticised.

If artistic gymnastics is not a historical, sexist relic, then why is there not a men's artistic gymnastics event?

@user16395699,

👏

@user16395699

It's not freedom to choose if you've spent years being raised in a sport culture telling you that women can only be judged accurately if they're nearly naked with heavy makeup, but that men can be judged accurately in baggy shorts/joggers without makeup.

Choices are not made in a vacuum. If you want female gymnasts to genuinely have the freedom to make real choices then the sexism and sexualisation needs to first be removed from the sport. Until that is done, nobody has freedom - neither those wearing sparkles nor those in unitards.

When people point out that women's gymnastics has sexualised dancing and essentially judgements on attractiveness, responding with "that's how it is" or "the men's competition isn't set to music" is not the defense you imagine.

It merely highlights the default sexism and way people have been socialised not to even see how sexist it is.

"It's normal for gymnastics" - yes, we are aware that sexism and sexualisation of female athletes has been normalised in gymnastics, but that doesn't make it acceptable or defensible.

Why do the men not have to dance and wink to show character? Don't just tell me that the men don't perform to music as if that makes it all ok, justify why that is the case for the men but not women.

Don't forget that women were initially excluded from the Olympics, and have only slowly been allowed to compete in restricted categories based on a continuation of that sexism and views of women as inferior athletes who are there for decorative purposes.

"The Olympics have always been sexist" is not a good reason why they should always be sexist.

I agree. and this is why I think the unitards are great. they look elegant and comfortable. they could be unisex.

I also agree that the men's is almost a different sport. (apart from some different equipment).

@user16395699

But I think it's unnecessary for people to (for example) accuse a 16-year-old (that's how old the Gadirova twins are) of "lap dancing" merely for fulfilling the requirements of her sport effectively.

Why are those the requirements of her sport? And not her male peers' sport?

You are spectacularly missing the point (or deliberately constructing a strawman). The gymnast is not being criticised. The sport that imposes sexist requirements on women is being criticised.

If artistic gymnastics is not a historical, sexist relic, then why is there not a men's artistic gymnastics event?

There is a men’s artistic gymnastics event..

The main point I think being made is the MAG Code of Points floor exercise doesn’t require music or dance and WAG version does. Some people feel that WAG should be brought in line with MAG and some feel that MAG should have music and more artistry added. I fall into the latter category, where I feel the choreography of the women’s events makes it more enjoyable event than pure tumbling. It also means that the focus on leaps and spins (not sure if people are combining this with dance or not) means that the routines are more diverse. Some gymnasts will perform the maximum four tumbling passes. And some will only complete two, but compensate with more and harder leaps and spins. Whereas the MAG non tumbling section is mostly extremely similar. And coquettishness is not in the Code of Points.

Either way if a change is made it won’t come through for a long time as it’s such a significant change that none of the current gymnasts have trained for that type of event.

I absolutely think that sexism and sexualisation of athletes should be discussed and highlighted. As should the endemically toxic and abusive (sexual and otherwise) culture in gymnastics. The brave gymnasts who have spoken out to shine a light on this are inspiring and I hope it’s the first step to change. It’s shocking, saddening and needs a huge shift to correct itself. But I don’t think conflating dance elements and leotards with that makes sense.