"Full of Milfs and their prams" - my supposedly feminist friend

[Mummy1608]

This thread is just a rant and cry for sympathy I suppose!

Out of all my female friends, I'm the only one who's had a baby. We would all call ourselves feminists, and all have decent jobs (what you could call "careers"). But I'm so upset that I've begin to notice little scornful digs about mothers in their conversations (well, from one friend ar least). There's this subtle hint that it's not feminist to become a mother. There's also raised eyebrows that I've gone part time in my main job, which I've done partly because I'm still breastfeeding.

Aibu, or is it actually pretty misogynist to use slurs like Milf? How is a mother any less worthy than a woman who isn't a mother? And yeah, I'm frequently to be seen pushing a pram in my neighbourhood, how is that something to be ashamed of...?

Has anyone else experienced this?

@CardinalLolzy

I think as is often noted on here, motherhood is where the biological differences between men/women are really highlighted and I'd say, it's a lot easier for gender stereotypes to start to dig in (mums often dropping FT work for practical reasons then lots of other things stemming from that).

So if your feminism is based in the simplistic belief that 'men and women are equal because they're the same' then this will seem to chafe against that.

There's no need for them to be disdainful though. Perhaps they are struggling with either wanting that for themselves and seeing the reality (which they might be determined to do differently - I remember thinking 'having a baby won't change my life that much!') or not wanting it for themselves and not being able to relate?

Yeah thank you for this food for thought... you're so right that men and women aren't the same, and that's why (eg) single sex provisions, workplace protections etc are so important for women especially. It's only since I became a mum and after my traumatic childbirth experience that I've begun to truly realise this. So it's kind of understandable (I guess) that my friend doesn't see it this way (yet?)

@CardinalLolzy

I think as is often noted on here, motherhood is where the biological differences between men/women are really highlighted and I'd say, it's a lot easier for gender stereotypes to start to dig in (mums often dropping FT work for practical reasons then lots of other things stemming from that).

So if your feminism is based in the simplistic belief that 'men and women are equal because they're the same' then this will seem to chafe against that.

There's no need for them to be disdainful though. Perhaps they are struggling with either wanting that for themselves and seeing the reality (which they might be determined to do differently - I remember thinking 'having a baby won't change my life that much!') or not wanting it for themselves and not being able to relate?

This is such a good point. So much of feminism is based on the anything boys can do girls can do too mentality. This just doesn’t work when it comes to children and childbirth. Equality doesn’t need to mean exactly the same.

I think you may be having a reckoning with your own feminism that your friends are unable to have just yet. Doesn’t excuse the awful MILF comment though.

There’s a type of pseudo-‘feminism’ that correctly notes various groups of women are seen as lesser by society, but responds to that by sneering at them.

“Older women are such pearl-clutching reactionary prudes. I’ll never be like that.”

“God, why do so many women turn into such monster Bridezillas when they get married? It’s not all about Princess’s perfect day you know! I’ll never care that much about a wedding.”

“Yuk, all those smug boring mummies trotting about with their expensive prams, talking about nappies and PTA meetings all day. That’ll never be me, I’m so much more interesting.”

It isn’t usually quite as explicit as your friend’s was, but you do see it coming up again and again and again with a lot of women who think they’ve managed to escape being sneered at by joining in the sneering and don’t even realise they’re doing it. Same thing as the trickle of posts on MN from women expecting baby 1 and declaring that they certainly won’t be a boring normal mummy, they can’t imagine anything more dull than sitting around at a baby group singing nursery rhymes - as though the rest of us are there because we find Wind the Bobbin Up the height of intellectual stimulation.

So much of feminism is based on the anything boys can do girls can do too mentality. This just doesn’t work when it comes to children and childbirth. Equality doesn’t need to mean exactly the same.

It misses the massive point that also, anything girls can do, boys can do except bear a baby. (And also breastfeed, of course). It's this fundamental essential thing women can do that they can't which they have to control, keep in its place.

You've actually put it extremely well yourself, OP: Motherhood is unique to women, and I really believe our fertility a big part of the reasons behind discrimination and violence against women...so, it's not feminist to look down on mums!

OP, is it time to make new friends, perhaps real feminist friends?

In the end anyone can say they're a feminist.

There's no single approach or exam to join

Totally agree, OP. It is frustrating to see, especially young women, buying the bullshit that basically being more like men makes women more valuable instead of grasping that the reason shit typically done by women hasn't been valued is precisely because it is shit typically done by women (and we can't afford to value ie pay for it so instead we pretend it is worthless).

Very limited view of feminism from your mates, and not at all in the spirit of it!

I never understand this whole low key 'breeder' hatred thing, if no one had kids we would all die out surely!!!

I have felt it too though from childless friends, mainly female friends actually, who always talk about making sure I'm getting my body back (breastfeeding) and not letting baby take over my brain. Well, forgive me for thinking often of a very helpless being that I chose to bring into the world who depends on me and DH completely to meet her needs. I'll just go and let her do her own thing shall I 😤

Not a new experience I’m afraid - 25 years ago I was told that I’d betrayed my sex and education in a prolonged character assassination by feminist students, for the radical idea that I wanted to have children. Massive eye roll by me followed by another when the worst of them had a hissy fit about not being asked to be a bridesmaid when I got married (she didn’t approve of that either)

See also the accusation of wasting your education if you become a stay at home mum. As if a) education has no intrinsic value and is only worthwhile if you are directly generating money from it and b) using that education when you teach your own children is not important

@GoldenOmber

There’s a type of pseudo-‘feminism’ that correctly notes various groups of women are seen as lesser by society, but responds to that by sneering at them.

“Older women are such pearl-clutching reactionary prudes. I’ll never be like that.”

“God, why do so many women turn into such monster Bridezillas when they get married? It’s not all about Princess’s perfect day you know! I’ll never care that much about a wedding.”

“Yuk, all those smug boring mummies trotting about with their expensive prams, talking about nappies and PTA meetings all day. That’ll never be me, I’m so much more interesting.”

It isn’t usually quite as explicit as your friend’s was, but you do see it coming up again and again and again with a lot of women who think they’ve managed to escape being sneered at by joining in the sneering and don’t even realise they’re doing it. Same thing as the trickle of posts on MN from women expecting baby 1 and declaring that they certainly won’t be a boring normal mummy, they can’t imagine anything more dull than sitting around at a baby group singing nursery rhymes - as though the rest of us are there because we find Wind the Bobbin Up the height of intellectual stimulation.

This is so true, the friend who said the title quote also rants about brides a lot.

However, it's really given me some things to reflect on (in a good way) because I recognise my former self in some of this comment! Yes, it's been such a shock to have my life changed to all-day-long nursery rhymes and hand clapping. BUT I've realised that even baby care can be fascinating and knowledge-driven (and therefore intellectually stimulating)... for example, I respect my baby's key worker at nursery so much for her advice and child-development knowledge etc. What I mean to say is, pre-baby I think I also subconsciously looked down on full time or part time mums a bit, and how wrong I was. Another commenter mentioned (sorry I don't know how to do more than one quote!) how these skills and activities are undervalued because they are usually done by women, and we can't be paid for them, so society deems them less worthy. It's so true. This has been a real learning process for me and I think I've kind of grown as a person and as a feminist and left those judgy friends behind a bit.

(Oops clicked Send too early!)

So just wanted to say thanks all for your solidarity!! Wish my in-person friends were more like some of you women!

Ps one more thing I thought, inspired by Goldenomber's post...

"Prude" being an insult, what is that all about amiright! Call me an old crone lol but surely it's good to have healthy sexual boundaries.

Your friend is a bit odd. And I HATE the term MILF. Might be time to remind her that feminists don't bring other women down for their life choices... there's something up with your friend, more to it. That's such a strong reaction to something completely ordinary and normal that she's got some insecurity there.

And as for going part-time - make your choices for your family. You will NEVER get the time back when your kids are little. No job will ever love you back, you might end up moving companies, retraining, taking a sabbatical etc. Make sure the work/life balance works for you, and don't worry about what others think.
I got a lot of grief from colleagues about going part-time but privately most at some point said they'd love to do the same.

Does she actually know what MILF means?

Have they actually expressed these things to you or are you assuming what they're thinking and projecting it onto them because you're feeling insecure. I'm guilty of doing this sometimes in various scenarios.

Agree the milf thing sounds like it was said in a condescending way, but I bet give it a few years, they'll start having babies and their attitudes may change.

Be proud to be a woman and a mother. And if it's not just projection and they start looking down on you for being a mother (ridiculous), fuck them off and find some normal people to hang out with.

"Prude" being an insult, what is that all about amiright! Call me an old crone lol but surely it's good to have healthy sexual boundaries.

Yes.
A lot of the loud 'sex positive' type of stuff seems to be being positive about rather negative sex, doesn't it?
I'm positive sex positive. And negative sex negative (which of course comes out as positive)

Anyway op, it sounds like you're somewhat ahead of your friends on the learning curve of life. Hopefully they'll catch up with you one way or another.

It's only since I became a mum and after my traumatic childbirth experience that I've begun to truly realise this. So it's kind of understandable (I guess) that my friend doesn't see it this way (yet?)

It’s really difficult to understand what is involved in being a mother until you actually go through it yourself. None of my friends had had children before I had my first, and I had worked in environments that were either very young or male dominated, so I only knew 2 or 3 people who had even gone on maternity leave. They might as well have decided to climb Everest or join a religious order.

Shamefully, I honestly joked about going on ‘maternity holiday’. I had a very rude awakening.

A couple of decades later, most of my peer group have had children and the view looks very different.

I also think it can be difficult to be made aware of the fact that pregnancy and having children really does have an impact and women need specific rights and services that men don’t. Easier to live in denial than be an awkward feminist.

Much easier to be a fluffy ‘intersectional’ feminist.

This is a great thread, although I'm sorry about your friends OP.

Women should be building each other up, supporting each other in our choices and remembering that not everything in life is truly a free choice.

I do know a lot of lovely women who can be supportive, kind, feminist etc but only of those who fit into their narrow view of what is acceptable. Women are too diverse and interesting to all meet their criteria, and therefore they are judgemental and sometimes cruel about the others.

This thread is a great reminder that we need to be here for one another and teach our children (if we have them) to do the same

Much easier to be a fluffy ‘intersectional’ feminist.

It's the elephant in the room of 'intersectional feminism' , isn't it? The intersection with being a carer. The intersection with the physical realities of bearing and nurturing a child. The intersectionalists by and large seem to blithely ignore the biggest and most fundamental axes , and do not fully engage with structural sexism.

Also, being generous to your friends she possibly sees MILF or yummy mummy as sort of compliments, ie attractive and also mothers. I think a lot of society sees it in this way, a slight incredulity that a woman has become a mum but is still attractive or sexy, shock horror and see it as complimentary to comment on that

If you're a MILF maybe she's a WILTSFOT

A Woman I'd Like To Say Fuck Off To.

I don't really get the modern association of feminism with careers. I mean, I understand the independence/'not relying on a man' aspect, but for many feminists the career seems to hold some kind of personal significance rather than just being a means to an end like for most men.

Most of my male friends would love to retire early but feminists seem to want to work