Would you be able to spot the menopause?

[WarriorN]

BBC report. I've been wondering if I've got some peri issues at 45. Earlier actually but I had no idea about perimenopause.

But this report reads as if it's usually early 50s. Everything I've been reading seems to be saying you could actually quite commonly start seeing peri symptoms from 40.

I only recently understood that meno is when they've stopped for a year, for most women around 51. But the shenanigans can go on for 10 years prior to that.

Why is the word perimenopause not used?

When I was 40 I would have completely dismissed any thought of it. At yet it seems, from reading various bits and Davina's programme, that starting hrt is best in your 40s for many women,

I don't feel there will be positive change for women around this until the language and age changes?

As women don't seek help due to unawareness and Gp dismissal it's possible that peri menopause is more commonly found among a younger age groups than currently reflected in literature?

Also conditions such as fibromyalgia and cfs, more common in women, could be worse or actually linked to peri?

Menopause: Swansea MP calls for change on 'the change' www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57838624

I am 42 and in perimenopause. I stumbled upon the phrase and figured out all of my symptoms including anxiety so extreme I could not function were tied to my hormones. I am now on estrogel, mirena, and vagifem. 100% difference in my life. Anxiety has almost gone as have all the “usual” symptoms of perimenopause.
I had to see 2 Drs and I was laughed at by the first ( female) and I bombarded the second with my knowledge and research and outright told him what I wanted.

My best friend is late 30s and going through it too.

I'm so sorry you experienced that and well done for persevering.

But yes, your experience is exactly what I mean. I'm in a few meno fb groups now and early 40s actually seems to be the norm. Unless they're all there as they had so many problems accessing help?

A colleague who is 39 described symptoms that sounded very like peri menopause yesterday. She thinks she's got all sorts of different things and is v anxious.

She wants to check a range of things eg thyroid, which can affect cycles, and diabetes as it's in her family but in all honesty it sounds hormonal. Low exercise tolerance, hot sweaty flashes, brain fog, periods are closer, mood swings etc.

The report includes a woman who had menopause at 36; so she was experiencing issues from her late 20s (she describes earlier) but that this is "rare" - 1 in 100.

But that still reads to me that having peri issues at 39/40 is still "rare." As most women are 51 when periods stop.

Unless peri menopause and menopause are more carefully defined and the word used more frequently, these conversations won't make any difference.

This is so weird. I asked the practice nurse today for info on peri menopause because I don't really know what the symptoms are. I'm 39 and I've noticed a few things changing (including frequency) and I just wanted to check if I was heading that way or not.

She recommended I look at the nhs website but are there any other sources people recommend for this?

menopausesupport.co.uk/ (Facebook group is excellent)

www.menopausedoctor.co.uk/

And the menopause section of mumsnet are good places to start.

There is a woeful lack of information and research on women’s health issues. I only learned about what happens fully during menstruation when I was trying for a baby and it didn’t happen. I only learned about the term ‘perimenopause’ from mumsnet a few years ago. I recently went for a smear and the nurse asked me if I was generally well, I reported to her I thought I was maybe experiencing a few symptoms of peri (anxious, forgetful, moody, lack of appetite, unable to eat full meals, trouble sleeping), her response was ‘it would be very unusual at your age’ (42). No further discussion. I was in a state of undress at the time so felt unable to pursue it.

My knowledge of menopause, perimenopause and menstruation has largely come from collections of women’s accounts and experiences rather than a medical point of view/research.

Exactly the same here.

I've had to read a lot of other women's experiences in fb groups.

I have Gp friends who are a little younger than me and look absolutely blank if I mention anything about meno or peri.

If it was a male’s that experienced these specific life events, there would be info, medication, research and support readily available without having to push for it. Women learn from each other, we have to, we discuss experiences, we collect and record experiences and we share remedies and solutions…maybe that’s why menfolk believed us to be witches back in the day!

The definition of menopause is when your periods stop.

Straight off that definition is

• not very good because periods often are very erratic. I've heard of women who think they have stopped and then have another after a year. The definition is tied to our fertility - ability to make a baby - rather than our general experience which is much more relevant to most of us I'd have thought

And on from that.

I think of it a bit like reverse puberty! With puberty it's known as a process with basis changes and impacts. The recognition of the hormonal changes on mood/ behaviour. That it's a difficult time. That there are wider changes than just being able to procreate.

Why is menopause not thought of the same way? A process with various impacts. Can be difficult. Hormones and mood. Etc etc

I am in peri menopause I'm sure. I'm 47.
Periods started getting erratic about 2 years ago.
Night sweats about a year.
I am depressed and on treatment I'm sure it's lockdown but who knows what's in the mix?
Last month had first hot flush. I naturally assumed you got v hot and know it can be v unpleasant.
But. I got a racing heart, felt like I couldn't get enough air so was gasping for breath. Dizzy. Felt like I was going to pass out and everything was telling me to lie down.
I was in a work meeting and had to just leave. That's happened twice now. At home on teams with colleagues is one thing but real life? Or meeting online with a client?!

I got in touch with the doctor the other day to see about hrt. Waiting for appt.

I told a friend. Are you sure what are your symptoms?? A common question. Women's reports of their own experience are just questioned as standard so often aren't they.

The whole framing of it as the important bit is no longer fertile and like it's a sudden thing is really unhelpful.

Absolutely spot on gerbil.

That's what I mean about the terminology. 'Menopause' is actually late to be getting help and treatment. Women who are suffering need the help in the years before actual meno, when periods cease for a year. During peri menopause.

The fact that around half of medical schools don't include it on their curriculum is also shocking.

I think that because body changes are on a kind of continuum, it can be difficult to pinpoint. At some point, maybe as early as late 30s, most women start to see changes in their hormones that eventually lead to menopause. So when is it just normal hormone changes over time vs some state that we label?

I noticed when I started getting my periods back after my son started weaning and I got my periods back, at about 38. So I hadn't had a period for almost three years, and clearly they were different than they had been before, as were a number of other related things.

Another thing is that some people are much more aware of hormonal changes than others. Some of that probably relates to how extreme their own symptoms are generally, and some people are much more noticing personalities. I learned how to chart from a Billings instructor years ago so that helped me - I could see how certain things in my life correlated to hormonal shifts, and so I became more aware of how those changes affected how I felt more generally.

What's your idea to improve things?

In terms of women realising that it will happen?

It would be a good thing in general I think if women and young women had a much stronger grasp of hormonal issues in general. That these will change and fluctuate over their lives and the kinds of effects it might have, and also how to understand their own cycles and spot changes. I tend to favour health type classes at school being segregated by sex, and I believe that quite a lot of stuff that is in there now could be usefully jettisoned for actually learning this kind of thing.

It reminds me also though of things like women being surprised by the effects of breastfeeding, hormonally speaking, or even the chemical effects of giving birth on thinking and feeling for many women. There's been a kind of denial that many women are effected to a really significant degree in these ways over their lives, and it can be a shock or more difficult to manage if you don't understand what's going on.

So this gets into all kinds of cultural beliefs about men and women being interchangeable, and about denying ageing.

'In terms of women realising that it will happen?'
Not that no! The menopause itself (no more periods end of fertility) is very well known I think.

Peri menopause is the thing being discussed on the thread- how long it can take, the wide range of symptoms, all that stuff.

We're not given the info though and it's not at all well known generally although it is being discussed more which is good. Sites like this are massively helpful.

'So this gets into all kinds of cultural beliefs about men and women being interchangeable'

I really don't think that belief is embedded in UK culture and I'm not sure what it's got to do with the topic. Women not knowing much about the menopause makes society think there's no difference between men and women? I may have misunderstood.

'And about denying ageing'

Can you expand on this? I think I know what you're thinking but don't want to guess!

I realised that I've been having a lot of the symptoms for about 10 years. All but the hot flushes and night sweats which have coincided with the cessation of periods (9 months and counting) I don't feel anxious as such but frequently get blasts of adrenaline that drain my energy and make my body feel weak. I'm glad peri-menopause is being talked about much more. Bit late for me, in my early 50s now, but I am pleased for other, younger women that hopefully things will improve. Especially as I have daughters.

@NiceGerbil

'In terms of women realising that it will happen?' Not that no! The menopause itself (no more periods end of fertility) is very well known I think.

Peri menopause is the thing being discussed on the thread- how long it can take, the wide range of symptoms, all that stuff.

We're not given the info though and it's not at all well known generally although it is being discussed more which is good. Sites like this are massively helpful.

No, I meant perimenopause. I imagine pretty much every woman knows the menopause will happen, but they often have little knowledge of how it manifests. Really, they are one thing, it's a process of women's hormonal processes changing and eventually ceasing. If you asked a woman, "do you think this happens all at once overnight or is it a process?" I suspect most would guess the latter, because bodies generally don't do things overnight. But they typically don't know many of the details. Hot flashes, and being grumpy, maybe.

The idea of men and women being fairly interchangeable has been a pretty significant player culturally, since the 80s. There were loads of articles and such saying that ideas like women not being interested in sex after babies was just some sort of oppressive sexist trope, or that women's sex drives were no different than mens, or in other areas, that women are as strong as men, and the only thing keeping them from being in certain jobs in equal numbers was sexism. Films began to show men and women as equally competitive in many sports, fighting, etc.

All of this has fed into much of the credulity we see now, especially from other women, about issues like men in women's sports. But it's also led to a lot of younger women in particular being really taken by surprise when they experience a really strong hormonal influence on their thoughts, feelings, libido, etc.

One of the most interesting things I found about learning to read my cycles is that I could see real patterns of behaviour related to my relative hormonal levels. But for a long time feminists were very uncomfortable with this sort of idea and tended to deliberately downplay it. Now with younger women many are simply unaware.

As far as ageing, we're uncomfortable with it, and with death, and we do a good job of staving off the effects. If you've ever traveled in a place where there is little access to or use of beauty products, you notice that people of 40 often look decidedly middle aged. You can see it in their grey hair, their teeth, body shape, etc. They can see themselves as elders. We, on the other hand, can manage to fool ourselves. People often think of themselves as young up until 30 or even 35. And then five years later you are starting to enter the process leading to menopause, it doesn't quite compute for people.

@Skybluepinkgiraffe

I realised that I've been having a lot of the symptoms for about 10 years. All but the hot flushes and night sweats which have coincided with the cessation of periods (9 months and counting) I don't feel anxious as such but frequently get blasts of adrenaline that drain my energy and make my body feel weak. I'm glad peri-menopause is being talked about much more. Bit late for me, in my early 50s now, but I am pleased for other, younger women that hopefully things will improve. Especially as I have daughters.

If it's affecting your daily life then the doc is an option

'The idea of men and women being fairly interchangeable has been a pretty significant player culturally, since the 80s'

I don't remember that from the 80s tbh.

'All of this has fed into much of the credulity we see now, especially from other women, about issues like men in women's sports'

This thread is about the menopause. Why do you keep posting about what I think is about trans things? It's totally off topic.

This is about menopause. It's an interesting topic. Let's not get sidetracked.

The point about especially women being credulous is.. Rather sexist.

'If you've ever traveled in a place where there is little access to or use of beauty products, you notice that people of 40 often look decidedly middle aged. You can see it in their grey hair, their teeth, body shape, etc'

You are talking about women here really I think? Yes some men do Botox etc but the vast majority who focus on trying to look youthful are women.

There is s reason for this sex difference if you consider it.

Older women are in no way considered respected elders here!

And that's the fault of... Feminism?

As the topic is menopause, are you suggesting something about hrt? Being related primarily as a desire to feel young?

I often find your posts hard to understand what you're getting at, apologies if I have got your points wrong.

I am saying that when women are taught all along that our bodies and experiences are not really affected much by their female nature, that their hormones are minor as far as enstruation, birth, libido, etc, they do not have an expectation that they will be affected so much by the effects of hormones due to perimenopause. In the same way a lot of women are floored to discover that breastfeeding kills their libido, they don't expect perimenopause to be such an issue. In fact they've been taught to think that it is a sexist idea to say women are so affected by hormones.

Similarly, people who think of themselves as young, who see all kinds of young looking women of 35 or 40 around, maybe have only just started having kids themselves, are surprised to start to feel the effects of age, to realise they are really on the downward slope of fertility.

Lack of awareness of perimenopause is part of a larger lack of awareness of, and connection to, our bodies.

I don't at all disagree that the idea of women being 'equal to men' has resulted in a concept of interchangeability, which has in its natural conclusion trans ideology - you can choose to be male or female - the huge influence of sexed hormonal impulses have been underplayed. For women, it is essential to understand how hormones play a part in our sexual desires, our childbearing activity, and how they affect our bodies and sex lives from 35-50. In the past, our lives as women from 13-30 were giving birth every couple of years until we died. And menopause wasn't something that women in their prime experienced. Life expectancy has increased hugely - we need urgently to examine how that affects the lives of women. Women are a biological reality - no one can choose to follow the path given us by biology / nature / birth chance / chaos / God.