Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: chat

WHO says countries should seek to "prevent initiation of drinking in women of childbearing age"

77 replies

Kinsters · 17/06/2021 03:50

Draft global alcohol action plan 2022-2030 urges countries to pay ‘appropriate attention to prevention’ of consumption in certain groups. The WHO plan says: 'Appropriate attention should be given to prevention of the initiation of drinking among children and adolescents, prevention of drinking among pregnant women and women of childbearing age' - The Telegraph

www.who.int/publications/m/item/global-action-plan-on-alcohol-1st-draft

It is shocking to me that in this report they mention the indirect negative effect of drinking in women of childbearing age multiple times (ie foetal alcohol syndrome) yet not once do they mention the link between alcohol and male violence. The report does reference violence and interpersonal violence as an indirect harm arising from alcohol consumption. It also acknowledges that the majority of problem drinkers are male. However it's unable to connect these two together and acknowledge that male violence related to alcohol consumption is undoubtedly a huge problem.

The report goes on to give the disturbing recommendation that member states should seek to prevent the initiation of drinking amongst women of childbearing age. As far as I can see there is no recommendation that member states should seek to even reduce the alcohol consumption of men, let alone prevent it all together, this despite the report acknowledging that overwhelmingly those directly negatively impacted by alcohol and those classed as problem drinkers are men!

I guess this is yet another example of men being the default.

OP posts:
UppityPuppity · 17/06/2021 07:58

When it talks about women of childbearing age, does it mean all women or just the boring adult human female kind? Conversely, a boring adult human female could presumably identify as a man for these purposes - perhaps at the weekend

Key questions to be answered.

Amazing that they know to use the word women when to clamp down on women’s personal freedoms but use don’t use ‘people’ of childbearing age - which would go far more to protect women and babies.

With the role of alcohol in violence against women- More babies are harmed by men.

Misogynistic bullshit.

Looking forward to the TRAs complaining that the word ‘woman’ isn’t inclusive enough here.

Dreamer2468 · 17/06/2021 07:58

Has anyone commenting here actually read the report of just The Telegraph's interpretation of it? They are hardly known for unbiassed journalism.

Kinsters · 17/06/2021 08:11

@Dreamer2468

Has anyone commenting here actually read the report of just The Telegraph's interpretation of it? They are hardly known for unbiassed journalism.
I read the report, not word for word but enough that I feel confident of my conclusion. I didn't actually read the telegraph article as it's behind a paywall.

I'm interested what bias you think could be at play in the reporting? Genuinely interested, I don't mean that to come across sarcastic.

OP posts:
GeorginaBell · 17/06/2021 08:15

There absolutely should be one on men. The issue here is often times they don’t state what has led to this report. I can say from previously working for public health England and nhs that female alcohol related cancer was on the rise and those with cancer symptoms were getting younger and younger. There isn’t one organ that alcohol doesn’t negatively affect. It does need attention on it but there isn’t an endless pot of money to campaign on things that a lot of the time people absolutely know is extremely unhealthy. In some countries alcohol isn’t seen as the cool IG inducing culture it is here. I’m sure in a while they’ll focus on something else we already know to do but don’t.

Wanttocry · 17/06/2021 08:22

As someone on the other thread said, they know what sex is when it comes to which group to control.

Redapplewreath · 17/06/2021 08:36

Is this going to apply to all women? Or just the boring, breeding stock type? Because this does do the full paternalistic patriarchal must keep the breeding stock from damaging even a potential fetus/ prioritising fetus over the breeder's bodily autonomy and freedoms thing as if it's straight out of the text book.

I'm increasingly thinking all these threads tie up together and the whole who is a woman/what's a lesbian/abortion/surrogacy etc stuff is a flat out onslaught on removing female rights and freedoms and we're heading full on for Gilead.

ThinkWittyThoughts · 17/06/2021 09:32

Breeding women - then know the difference when the want to, eh?

Controlling women as potential breeders - no consideration for what the woman wants to do with her own body. Not even acknowledgment that there is a choice for women to make.

Finally, blaming women. By focussing on women’s alcohol habits, not only is it low hanging fruit for them to make change, it's low hanging fruit for men to blame women for society’s ills.

FFS. It's like women’s suffrage was just an inconvenient dream that men can safely ignore.

Aalvarino · 17/06/2021 09:34

I find that pretty objectionable. Yuck.

VienneseWhirligig · 17/06/2021 09:39

Women: know your place.

Don't drink, you will harm your non-existent foetus
Don't formula feed, it's not best for baby
Don't complain about healthcare, there's a pandemic on
Don't eat nice food, you will get fat
Don't ask for sterilisation, you might change your mind

CheeryTreeBlossom · 17/06/2021 09:54

I don't understand the timing of this, I know we don't know what impact any alcohol has in pregnancy, but is there a significant number of babies being born with suspected fetal alcohol syndrome globally that needs to be addressed?

Why issue this advice when as others have noted there are much, much, much greater impacts to society from men drinking and other drugs and diseases?

There's a huge range of things advised against during pregnancy. Should all women of childbearing age also avoid all soft cheese, undercooked meat, contact sport, being overweight? Even yoga and Pilates moves are advised against, do we ban any risky activity for women on the grounds it might harm a hypothetical child?

FFS at least WHO is showing us who they really are and what they think of women. Pesky women having bodily autonomy, can't have that.

GoingGently · 17/06/2021 10:23

Don't you know, women should be baby-ready at all times, just in case a man decides he wants to impregnate them? Hmm

Bit of a side note but I read on the NHS website the other day that there's no need to worry about sperm DNA fragmentation because the egg actually corrects any damage to the sperm!! I could not believe my eyes! How can this possibly be true?

I have a number of female friends going through horrible invasive fertility treatments because of male factor issues, and I myself had to have a TFMR last year for non-inherited chromosomal problems. Does this mean that if the man's sperm has an issue it's STILL OUR FAULT for not correcting it properly?? The NHS advice seemed very much along the lines of don't worry about any impact the vaccine might have on your sperm...your woman will clear up the damage. No need to take personal responsibility for your own fertility. Seems to fly in the face of all sensible fertility advice? I thought they'd decided it was pretty much 50/50?

GoingGently · 17/06/2021 10:24

I agree... Gilead cometh Angry

WarriorN · 17/06/2021 11:57

The book It Starts With the Egg documents research around rates of miscarriage and growth abnormalities and I'm sure iugr, specifically linked to the man, their alcohol intake and nutrition, smoking status etc.

This book was written by a dr in the us who hit her 40s and struggled to conceive/ experienced miscarriages and so set out to look at the best ways to help both egg and sperm quality.

I am disgusted with the level of victim blaming, and omission of the impact of male's alcohol and the link to male violence.

GoingGently · 17/06/2021 12:40

Yes, I read that book @WarriorN... the impact of lifestyle / pollution / nutrition on sperm quality and its effects were very compelling.

Redapplewreath · 17/06/2021 12:58

Anyone think men would put up with being told not to drink? To hand over their sex based rights? To not selfishly think of their own orgasms when other people need their selfless love so badly?

Not for two seconds. Sex based thinking all the time, regardless of how it's pretended on the surface that we've all moved on. We really haven't at all.

FFS. It's like women’s suffrage was just an inconvenient dream that men can safely ignore.

It really shows how superficial and surface only were the changes achieved for women's rights, and how none of the issues and beliefs and values beneath misogyny, patriarchy and #servicehuman were ever really addressed.

On the plus side, this has awoken outrage and a grassroots resurgence in women's rights movements that I haven't seen before in my lifetime, and I think it's barely getting started. They're deeply unpopular groups for the noise they're making, the challenges they present to a comfortable patriarchal, sex based oppression, and essentially for voicing women's "No", but the more women get direct experience of how these kind of casual attitudes and suggestions demonstrate the absolute contempt for and inferiority of female type humans in the eyes of the establishment, the more and more women will be joining those groups. We're going to see a women's rights movement with a much louder reach and voice than the suffragettes managed, not least because women hold 51% of the vote.

RubyFowler · 17/06/2021 13:00

This was on womans hour earlier. You can listen on BBC sounds if you missed it.

AmyVindaloo · 17/06/2021 13:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

AmyVindaloo · 17/06/2021 13:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

WhereYouLeftIt · 17/06/2021 18:32

@RubyFowler

This was on womans hour earlier. You can listen on BBC sounds if you missed it.
Just listened to this, and got increasingly pissed off with Professor Niamh Fitzgerald (Professor of Alcohol Policy, Stirling University).

Lengthy wittering about 'we shouldn't fall into the trap being set for us, comments are from those in the alcohol industry' and then when Emma pointed out that she was quoting from this WHO draft action plan, she then went off on another tangent about 'why is this story appearing now' then expounding her conspiracy theory that it's all down to the alcohol industry marketing departments. That's my shortened version - she was clearly settling down to talk on and on about the drinks industry and not this WHO draft action plan.

Emma Barton had to be really pointed and drag her back to the point of what the plan said about 'women of childbearing age' - "Just to be very clear - is there anything in your research around stopping women drinking 'of childbearing age', because that is directly said here". The first word in Fitzgerald's response was 'no', blah blah called the phrase "ill-advised". The other interviewee (Ella Wheelan, Spiked) called that "disingenuous" and eventually got to her point of the sexist mistrust of women making decisions for themselves.

Then back to Fitzgerald and another tangent to the alcohol industry won't put the calorie count on a beer bottle (it's all about the industry for her, not the WHO).

Honestly - what a waste of time! The whole point was that the WHO had written a draft plan treating all women of childbearing age as people who should be prevented from drinking. Fitzgerald did her damnedest to avoid the point, Wheelan widened the point and generalised, and Barton failed to keep either interviewee on the track of 'WTF WHO, sexist totalitarianism or what'. Dispiriting.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000x0v6
It's all in the first 15 minutes if you want to be enraged listen yourself.

Highwind · 17/06/2021 19:12

Maybe the first actual positive outcome of self-ID I have come across then.

What are they counting as a woman of childbearing age?

Because the minute I enter through the pub doors, all that ‘masculine’ energy rubs off on me and I usually become a man.

What happens if my gender identity switches mid-drink?

Without knowing who identifies as a woman, how could they prevent women drinking? They would have to ban all child-bearing aged adults and just not serve the ones in dresses?

It will never work.

Mumtotwofurbabies · 17/06/2021 20:26

This can’t be correct…so they are saying that it’s best for women between the ages of say, 16-45 shouldn’t drink alcohol at all, ever?! 😂😂 right.

somethinginoffensive · 17/06/2021 21:38

we shouldn't fall into the trap being set for us, comments are from those in the alcohol industry

I don't have a lot of time for the alcohol industry, however, in this case they've done our job for us by reading this report in detail to pick out anything that can be challenged.

They don't have feminist interests at heart, but they have highlighted sexism here.

mum2jakie · 17/06/2021 21:44

@Mumtotwofurbabies

This can’t be correct…so they are saying that it’s best for women between the ages of say, 16-45 shouldn’t drink alcohol at all, ever?! 😂😂 right.
And the rest! I'm 44 and having regular periods so pretty sure I'm still of child bearing age and won't have gone through the menopause for quite some years yet!
CharlieParley · 18/06/2021 00:17

The CDC made this recommendation in 2016 and there was quite a furore about it then too.

But as with so many of these attempts to change our behaviour, there is no research providing robust evidence that moderate to low amounts of alcohol cause FAS. A number of literature reviews of the available research confirmed this to be the case, including one review from 2006 carried out by Oxford University researchers.

There is ample evidence that about 5% or so of babies whose mothers abuse alcohol in pregnancy will be born suffering from fetal alcohol syndrome, which is serious and causes lifelong issues for the child.

There is also ample evidence that the reason why alcohol abuse doesn't always cause FAS has to do with the overall situation of the mother. In many cases where FAS is present in the child, the mother often has a number of other issues such as drug abuse, malnutrition, domestic abuse and so on. (FAOD, FAS can and does still happen just due to alcohol abuse.)

There is very limited data on the effect of moderate to low amounts of alcohol intake on the fetus and what studies there are, are frequently suffering from methodology issues.

Nonetheless women are expected to forego even a single drop of alcohol even in pre-pregnancy (IIRC, that's what the CDC called the status of non-pregnant women of childbearing age who might get pregnant, including those who aren't even TTC.)

Because if you don't, and the baby has the slightest issue, it's all your fault.

There was a recent thread on AIBU where a woman who didn't drink at all in the first trimester and now has one glass of wine a week, was receiving some horrendously accusatory comments, going way beyond a robust challenge of the OP's considered belief that one glass a week was not a risk to the baby. It did not matter that the OP had researched the issue and then self-regulated her intake to one small glass of wine a week after talking to her HCP. And for most weeks she stuck to that amount. (she'd had three weeks with no alcohol and three weeks with two glasses, and the rest were one glass). Nonetheless, the OP was accused of being an alcoholic and someone who didn't deserve to have a baby, because if the unborn baby didn't come first in every respect, she was unfit to be a mother.

All of this despite the fact that the dos and don'ts of pregnancy are rarely static. When I was first pregnant, there was real panic about the effect of sweeteners. Now they're considered just fine. Feeling nauseous 24/7, I didn't drink while pregnant or nursing, but back then the advice was to drink in moderation, but drinking was fine. Around about 2006, when I was last pregnant, I remember is when all the advice came in that said no alcohol whatsoever in pregnancy (but not to worry if you didn't know you were pregnant and drank) and in 2016 the CDC said no alcohol whatsoever in pre-pregnant women either.

Both recommendations were made without the publication of a solid evidence base accompanying the announcements. I'm very curious to see whether the WHO proposal now is accompanied by new research that does stand up to scrutiny for a change.

(Obviously, a lack of evidence for harm is not evidence of an absence for harm, so I remain open-minded about future developments providing robust evidence that low-level alcohol intake leads to FAS. But there is none right now.)

Bargebill19 · 18/06/2021 00:26

Can I ask a silly question?
I’ve read the article and this thread - it really does mean all women who are of child bearing age - regardless of wether they are actually pregnant or not? Am I right to think that is what it’s saying (amongst other things)?
This, along with that male /female pregnant mouse experiment…
I have never been more glad I didn’t have kids and I have less time ahead of me, than behind me.