Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry

[ArabellaScott]

bylinetimes.com/2021/03/22/uncomfortable-conversations-need-to-be-had-about-why-murder-of-two-black-sisters-hardly-made-the-news-says-mp/

Article including quotes from Dawn Butler.

Noting that the man accused of killing the sisters is due a trial in June. Please be mindful if commenting that the case is pending.

This was a horribly upsetting crime, but I remember at the time how fast it seemed to slip out of the news.

Hard topics to discuss sensitively, but I thought it might be a relevant article.

Maybe it's useful to talk about X police force rather than 'the police' where all sorts of factors are different

I think this might be useful. I'm not at all saying that there aren't issues of racism/classism/sexism in other forces, but it seems striking that there seem to be so many with one force.

Excellent point.

Exactly how many separate reports were made to the Met about a rapist taxi driver?

And members of the same force took selfies of themselves with Bibaa and Nicole's bodies?

Something is rotten there.

Presumably because London has a much larger black population than other areas?

Wiki tells me roughly half the black people in the UK live in London, making up 13% of our population.

Well yes of course something is rotten.

There is no appetite to change.

The lack of reporting of this was horrifying. The way journalism works, two sisters going missing together would objectively be ‘big news’. But clearly not if they are black.

And it is without doubt colour-related. The Press focuses more on news involving attractive women. Bibaa and Nicole were stunning. But they were ignored.

A tragic and horrendous event for their family (like Doreen Lawrence, their mother acts with a similar deeply sad dignity of which I would be incapable) and a depressing indictment of society.

Unfortunately their mum has no choice but to act with a deep sad dignity because, as a black woman, if she acts in any other way then she will be torn to shreds, criticised, discredited

I'm not explaining this very well, and I'm sure their mum is a woman of great dignity (she clearly is) but she doesn't have the choice to act in any other way in public and still be seen as credible

I just had a wee look for info on press & media attitudes to racism.

Unfortunately all that I can find is articles about Meghan Markle - a situation that just doesn't really mean anything to me or, I would imagine, have much of a bearing on the experience of the vast majority of women in the country.

I think the US/UK divide quite often confuses issues, too. We have such different histories, cultures and contexts.

Monkey - I quite agree. She will be being held to a higher standard.

OP, the main difference in the history of racism between the US and the UK is that (eventually) the US held its enslaved people in the Amercian South, alongside the slaverholders, whilst the UK held its enslaved people in the Carribean, far from sight.

As the US is a continuous landmass, at the end of slavery - and particularly during the Jim Crow era of domestic terrorism, formerly enslaved peoples travelled north/west as refugees from that reign of terror.

In the UK, it wasn't until the post war era, when we were in need of labour to rebuild, that descendants of Carribean slavery were permitted to emigrate to the UK. They encountered significant opposition and racism, including from authorities, which persists to this day.

The point is, the abuse, trauma, rape and murder may have been done offshore and safely out of sight and mind, but it was done, the victims did suffer just as terribly as those in the US, and the attitudes towards the victims' descendants did and does persist.

OP, I would reccomend this series: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b082w9p9/black-and-british-a-forgotten-history-1-first-encounters

Also this series:
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000ngdy/enslaved-with-samuel-l-jackson-series-1-1-a-people-stolen

Be warned, it's a tough watch.

Thanks for the history & links, Pics.

We have very different histories even within certain parts of the UK, of course. I think there's very little knowledge or education on the subject and it still skews massively towards US history.

US issues are vastly different, and I doubt it helps to try and use the same methods, theories or tools to tackle UK race issues. I think in some cases it has just potentially exacerbated things.

I will try and find the report a friend sent me back when the BLM protests were happening in the US and starting to happen here. She's black, British, and disagreed with both the protests and the claim that Britain is racist, but didn't feel able to say so at the time.

One thing that makes me sad is that (after half a century on Earth) my lifetime won't stretch long enough for black people to be spoken of without slavery being the primary reference ...

@PursuingProxemicExactitude

One thing that makes me sad is that (after half a century on Earth) my lifetime won't stretch long enough for black people to be spoken of without slavery being the primary reference ...

In a discussion about racism, how can it not be? Slavery as an oppressive and exploitative economic system is the founding event of racism as we know it.

Sadly, unless racism is acknowledged and effectively addressed - which is has not been - the existence of slavery and Britain's significant part in that, will continue to be an important part of the discussion.

The use of gallows humor and dark humor during crisis situations

But that's not even nearly gallows humour, its actually just sick. A joke that wont be remembered tomorrow is one thing. Pictures of you in front of two dead women is horrendous. You know those pictures are probably still going round? There are individuals who like that sort of thing, christ knows why.

This to my mind was racism. I normally can see why only certain murders make it into mainstream news and it's mostly the pretty ones. These girls were beautiful, so theres no reason other than the colour of their skin as to why more wasnt made of it. It sickens me that two beautiful young women were killed but to add the sleazy photo taking just completed the offense.
I've not seen if those officers were sacked. They damn well should have been.

As far as I know, they remain suspended, but I'm not 100% sure.

I think the point about references to slavery aren't just about Black people, it is also about those who benefited from enslaving others.

Most of what we have in this current comes from the profits of slavery, and that isn't just the slave owners. In a limited way the wealth trickles down. Every street you see of red brick victorian houses are evidence of that wealth trickle down. Britain as a trading nation (assuming we were ever honest in our dealings) was based on the wealth created from slavery. And of course not just slavery, but we asset stripped other countries.

So its not just about those of African and Caribbean descent, but those from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, and other countries.

So the reference is about those who have benefited from slavery and colonialism. And how this still shapes our society, ie us.

Not saying this to diminish in any way the inhumanity behind the police who took pictures of the bodies of Nicole and Bibaa, but a police man was suspended after the discovery of Sarah's body and they were collecting evidence for "an inappropriate graphic" he shared by phone.

Added into the racism and misogyny there must be something in the culture of the police that makes them thing that they can behave like this in private between themselves.

Yes, I know and acknowledge all this, stumbledin - and have argued the same points myself about the benefits trickling down over generations. Though I don't think it's in a limited way.

Nevertheless, I could do without newly nervous white people managing to squeeze the word slavery into the first five minutes of any conversation with me - as if to demonstrate some sort of alliance.

PursuingProxemicExactitude - thanks for taking the time to explain that.

I've never heard anyone do that. But then I am white so not been on the receiving end.

So I was talking on a social level rather than actual personal experience.

Indeed ...

Bit confused.

How many posters live in London?
Slavery?

Surely the more pertinent discussion is windrush? And the recent scandal?

London has its own history. And it's own policing. The met.

The met have been my force for 40+ years. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

They have an appalling record.

There's no need to go to the USA or colonial past for this ( although happy to discuss what bastards we've been historically on a different thread).

The met have in recent years killed two people and then lied about the circumstances (that's two we know).
Also
Corruption
Cover ups
Selling stories to the press
Dismissing rape victims
Not bothering to investigate
Sapphire unit had to be shut down
Warboys
Reid
The riots in Tottenham could have been avoided if they had treated mark Duggans family with the respect and honesty they should have
Very serious ??? over other deaths. Smiley culture for eg. Seriously?

They are racist, misogynist, everythingist.

I have no idea what they do day to day. They don't turn out for stuff that normal people deem important.

I don't trust them. I don't like them. I'm white and middle class. Fuck knows how they treat others.

That is based on my experience and what I've read over the years that has only made my opinion worse.

The woman on Clapham common got more attention not from the police. From the press. And that's not right.

The police? Meh. The guy had been reported for exposing himself in a McDonald's I think it was. Loads of witnesses. Was reported. Car reg. These men escalate- doing it in McDonald's with car outside and loads of people about should have been a massive red flag.

Nah.

They're not interested in that stuff. That's my experience and view based on that.

The watsapp selfies. Who the fuck does that. Disgusting.

That's our police. Yay.

There's no need to go to the USA or colonial past for this

I agree, I think that's a bit of a tangent. I don't live in London, no, which is maybe why some of this is also so outwith my experience/understanding.

But it did make the news? I remember being shocked by it. And then appalled that the police took selfies. And then appalled that the family had to conduct their own search. I know all of this because it was reported in the news.

Its heartbreaking and their mum is amazing.

Nevertheless, I could do without newly nervous white people managing to squeeze the word slavery into the first five minutes of any conversation with me - as if to demonstrate some sort of alliance.

I am not sure why anyone is posting comments which are basically denying the reality of another poster.

Met officer found to have been member of Neo-Nazi group. Seemed relevant to this thread.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-london-56604470