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CBT / CAT - philosophical difficulties in dealing with "bad" thoughts!

3 replies

GrendelsMum · 26/02/2009 19:56

Hi people

First of all, thanks to all those who took the trouble to reply to my first post here - I very much appreciated it.

I'm not sure if anyone will be able to help me with this, but I got such a helpful response last time I posted that I thought I would try.

I'm now having CAT (cognitive analytic therapy) - I'm seeing my therapist again next Tuesday, but wanted some other people's ideas before then. I've been doing my own home-grown CBT for years - dismissing 'unhelpful' or 'unreliable' thoughts. Until now, this has usually been hard work, but possible. However, I'm coming to think that actually some of my depressive thoughts are actually true, which of course makes it very difficult to dismiss them. For example, I think that I am worthless and that life is meaningless. I can see that these might well be classified as not true ('what do you mean you're worthless? how can you say that?') but I can't see any evidence to the contrary. Looking at it logically, I suspect that life is meaningless, that therefore human life is worthless, and that therefore my life must be worthless. Is there anything I'm missing which means that this isn't so? I ought to say that I'm not in any danger of committing suicide if you all agree that human life is worthless - to some extent, I'm curious from a philosophical point.

Sorry if this is one of the maddest posts on here! I will ask my therapist about this when I next see her (though I suspect I ought to be asking a philosopher instead), but was interested to see whether anyone else had experienced this difficulty, and if so, how / if you had worked through it.

Thanks!

OP posts:
thirtysomething · 26/02/2009 20:01

I think if you read any Holocaust literature you may see things differently, as you can find meaning in anything, any sort of existence if you want to. it all depends on your definition of meaning. This subject interests me in an existential-what's it all about-kind of way - I don't mean to belittle your anxiety, just wanted to put another viewpoint.

What do you mean by worthless? What has meaning or value for you? Do you have children? What do they mean to you ? Am just asking to see how things look in your worl at the moment..none of this is meant to judge or undermine; just want to ask the kinds of questions that might clarify...

nickytwotimes · 26/02/2009 20:04

Grendel, I know that when I am feeling low I can 'philosophise' myself into making that feeling make sense, iyswim?! On the other hand, when I am feeling good, I see things totally differently. Why do you say that logically, life is meaningless?

Fwiw, I think CBT is rubbish. I think CAT is better, but that's just my experience. Be careful of anal - ising things as my old therapist said.

I think your key point was that you can't see any evidence that life is meaningful, but you WILL when you feel better.

Btw, sorry, I may have to go shortly as dh needs poota, but will check tomorrow.

GrendelsMum · 28/02/2009 18:41

Thanks very much for your replies!

I'm also interested from an existential view point. I think the idea of Holocaust literature is an interesting one - I do take your point there, but then couldn't it be contrasted with people who can no longer go on living after passing through such terrible events? On the other hand, perhaps they are considerably fewer than those who do find space for compassion and meaning within genocidal situations? However, i'm concerned by the reaction of the wider world to genocide - I often feel that people are happier to speak about the Holocaust than genocide which is happening now. Does this suggest that in fact people are not really interested in the sufferings of others? That we can only be interested in the sufferings of others if it is presented as a story of an individual, or revealed to us in concrete form as in the concentration camps themselves? Or perhaps lack of interest is in fact due to feelings of powerlessness - we know we can do nothing, and therefore we don't want to get involved.

I'm also wondering whether there's some kind of 'thing' in the human brain which makes humans want to continue living, and that when this goes wrong, we can't see a reason for human existence? I've been trying to catch myself when I've been feeling 'good' and have been trying to spot what it is that changes about my attitude to life at those times - so far as I can see, I can't actually see any point to life when I'm feeling good, but that is merely an philosophical point, and one which I acknowledge and get on with doing whatever interesting thing I was doing before. I'm thinking, therefore, that I won't see evidence that life is meaningful when I'm feeling better, but that I probably won't care whether it's meaningful or not.

Perhaps I shouldn't say that life is meaningless (as this might lead me into having to prove a negative?), but rather I can see no reason for life to have worth or meaning. (Gosh - this is very much like all these 19th century scientists reading Darwin and slitting their throats in the bath.*) I can see that one might argue that a good life is one in which you help other people, but this seems to be a circular argument - why should helping others be of value unless life is of value in the first place? And why should life be of value?

I can't see any particular reason for anything to have meaning or value to me - although I'm very fond of crocuses! But can crocuses be a motive for living? I don't have children (was supposed to be trying to get pregnant but obviously came to the conclusion now isn't the right time), but I've seen that having children doesn't necessarily make it possible for people to go on living. I also have a lovely husband, parents, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins etc, but I still don't see that the possession of family can be a reason for life.

I suppose I'd like someone to quote a philosopher at me and prove that life has meaning, at which point I could go back to squashing unhelpful thoughts. Probably unlikely to happen. However, I'm enjoying this discussion.

More light-heartedly, this whole uncertainly about the meaning of life is really causing me difficulties about buying some new chairs (which my husband and I agreed on a while ago, and which I'm supposed to order) - as whatever the meaning of life is, I can't believe that chairs are involved. We will have to go without them a while longer.

Thanks!

  • which I believe did not actually happen as such...
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