question about sexual encounter

[havetoask]

Sorry, the title is a bit wanky, I feel a bit stupid asking this question though.
I've namechanged for this one.

If you meet a man and you end up back at your house, and then go to bed, and this is the maybe tmi bit.....

If you have never had sex before and your body clams up and he can't get inside you, but he forces it in, and he knows he is hurting you quite badly but carries on, making you bleed, is that ok? Would that be considered a disastrous sexual encounter or would it be more serious?

This happened a long time ago, but I can't stop thinking about it and it's not a nice feeling. Plus, I didn't have sex or get intimate with anyone for a long long time after that. I can't believe I'm posting this now. Am I overreacting?

how old were you both?

Oh really Monkeytrousers, it's quite baffling and even rather amusing that you assume that any criticism of what you say must come from some vendetta against you as a person. Really my dear, it isn't all about you. It is extremely narcissistic to think it is. I have no idea who you are or anything about you - you are just a pseudonym on the internet to me. I am merely responding to what you say and the manner in which you say it. And I really do think that if you see yourself as a champion of rape victims, you should not be quite so aggressively and personally offensive to someone who has had the courage to identify herself as such, even if anonymously. I am sure it takes a lot of courage, and makes the person feel very vulnerable. If I had been raped, you are not the person I would choose as my champion.
I would also like to point out that you are not the person who chooses when a subject is finished, or when it should be taken 'off the board' (is that like 'taking it outside'). Why on earth do you think that Dittany would like to strip herself of her anonymity to talk to someone who has treated a personal revelation with such insensitivity.

I have had a very bad night's sleep thinking about all of this. I thought that my views about this sort of thing were fairly standard, I am surprised to learn that many women hold such different views. I am having a little trouble digesting this, and especially where it leaves me with what happened to me 15 years ago.

The bits I have trouble with but seem to be widely held views are:

That a woman has to say no for a rape to be comitted (unless she is under the legal age of consent).
That a man cannot be expected to realise if he is hurting someone.
That a man cannot be expected to differentiate between crys of pain and crys of pleasure.
That a man cannot be expected to check whether anything is wrong if a woman is lying motionless, has disengaged emotionally and is unresponsive.
That if a woman has "clamped shut", so the man has to force it in, making her bleed, this is a normal sexual reasponse in women, and men should not be expected to think anything of it.
When men are "in the zone" they cannot be expected to notice the behaviour of their partner in any way.

I have been left very confused by this thread.

The OP was a virgin, and is very normal for their to be difficulty and bleeding when first penetration occurs because of the hymen. Some women no longer have a haymen when they have first intercourse, and this causes less pain and probably no bleeding, but for many women this is not the case.

So at what point does consensual sex become none consensual? Is it the point at which one partner changes their mind, or is it the point at which it is made KNOWN that one partner has changed their mind? And how much is it reasonable to expect a person to know without being told?

The hyman is a flimsy piece of skin which is why it's so easy to break before losing one's virginity. If it was the hyman that makes it so painful and causes bleeding it would have the same effect when a girl breaks her hyman riding a bike or inserting a tampon.

It hurts and makes a woman bleed when she's not ready for it and the man doesn't take care, either for his own inexperience or because he's an oaf or because he doesn't care.

The way havetoask described how her body responded sounded like vaginismus to me, rather than her hymen getting in the way. That is what the "clamped shut" reaction sounds like to me. If it was vaginismus it would have been horifically painful when the man (forcibly) penetrated her.

If you haven't heard of it here's a link. It is very common especially when a woman is with a man she doesn't want sex with. The "clamping shut" is exactly how a sufferer would describe what happens - the muscles of the vagina clamp shut whenever the woman knows penetration is imminent, or when penetration is attempted.

If someone knows they are hurting someone quite badly, and the person has not given explicit consent to be hurt quite badly, then that is not consent in my book.

However I know that a lot of people on this thread consider this to be perfectly acceptable.

I am interested to understand people's views on a situation where a man may not have heard someone say no because they were "in the zone" and concentrating on something else?

I really don't know what to make of all this now. I've just had a row with my dh because he thinks i'm being 'moody'

I can't stop crying, and I can't stop thinking that I must have 'victim' tatooed across my forehead because there are so many times I've felt threatened. I've had many experiences with men, and some have been really good, and some have been a bit awkward, some have been dull, and some have made me feel bad.

The two experiences I've talked about don't fit into any of those categories because I didn't really feel anything about them at the time, except that niggling feeling that they were wrong. It's only now that my brain won't let me forget.

At the time I packaged them up and put them to the back of my mind. I told myself 'Nobody likes a victim. DO NOT BE ONE. If anyone asks, say you are fine, and that these choices you make and have made are your own.'

I feel detatched from all of this really, like it doesn't apply to me.

ChukkyPig, I think you know deep down that he heard you and he raped you. Don't doubt your own judgement. Ever.

havetoask it's not that you have "victim" tatooed on your head, but that you have had so many bad experiences there is part of you that thinks that that is your worth. When you look for men you don't look for the good ones because you're not worthy of a goood man, you take the ones who aren't going to treat you well and thus perpetuate the myth. You need councelling to help you with your view of your own self worth because it's not something you will be able to work through alone.

I know you are right TBM. I want it to go away now. I've got too much stuff to do. I'm trying to remind myself that we are all just going to be a pile of ashes one day and we need to just get on.
That's worked before, I can't get it to work now for some reason.
I'm out of my comfort zone with this now, and I didn't think I would ever be there.

havetoask just try to remember that you are not the only one, and that processing these experiences is tremendously difficult for many of us.

Good luck and please try to remember that I, and many others on this thread understand exactly how you feel.

I hope that you feel better, if it helps I think that these two men sound like utter bastards and feeling angry and distressed at what happened even after a lot of time has passed is completely normal. They were wrong and deeply nasty and treated you badly, IMO, so please don't get angry with yourself or start questioning whether you did something wrong. you didn't and they did and that's what I think no matter what anyone else says x

BTW thank you for what you said, I know what he did was wrong but it's hard when you come up against people who put doubts in your mind when it's something so intensely personal. Obviously you understand that and I will try to take my own advice. TBH this thread has raked up a lot of memories and feelings which I thought I'd put behind me. Not your fault for starting it, obviously, it just went off in an unexpected direction. x

havetoask: I really REALLY think you owe it to yourself to get some counselling. Yes it takes time but it is only an hour or two out of your week and it will give you a better quality of life. Yes we all all ashes eventually but that's even MORE reason to deal with it - no point having a SHITTY few years on the planet when for the sake of a couple of hours a week for a few months you could have a MUCH IMPROVED few year. See it as something that you are doing FOR YOURSELF and not just another chore or something to tidy up. Counselling completely changed my life because it gave me tools to deal with the past and to deal with difficult things in the present. It's an investment in YOU and you're worth it. xxx

TBM and CHukkypig: the first time I had penetrative sex the penetration was difficult and I did bleed quite a bit. It was not rape in any way, just inexperience on both sides.
(When I say it was not rape, I mean that I consented to the sex, did not at any point ask him to stop and TBH thought that this was what sex was 'really' like. My ignorance was not his fault, and he was worried and upset by the bleeding.)

Well, this morning I got the yellow pages out and found a place that offers counsellling. I sent them an email, I can't believe I did it. I know I have to as yesterday I had a panic attack and I'm unable to sleep or eat very much.
Thanks for all the advice, it has prompted me to seek help. I think it's been a long time coming.

Wow, well done you! What a great and positive step forward. You are very brave. Good luck

HaveToAsk, that is great news and I don't think you will regret it. You might feel worse for a while by reliving it while you talk about it but as you work through it with the therapist you will gradually start to feel better and better after the worst bit. Don't be put off and stop going during the bad first bit as it is worth it in the end.

SGB I didn't ever say anything about first times other than I'm glad mine wasn't as bad as all the stories people were posting and that not all first times are bad.

Just wanted to wish you luck, havetoask. Counselling is hard work, but so worth it. If you do go for it (and I hope you do) allow yourself to really do that work, and get your life back.

As for all those earlier posts - so many posters seem to have missed the point that this is not about labels, or whether something is called "rape" or someone should be called a "rapist". It is about how an event was experienced - how it felt then and how it continues to affect someone now. Real life can't be compartmentalised that easily, and we can say we were hurt, and are hurting, without having to apportion blame or label the experience with a word.

havetoask, dittany - everyone - take good care of yourselves.