question about sexual encounter

[havetoask]

Sorry, the title is a bit wanky, I feel a bit stupid asking this question though.
I've namechanged for this one.

If you meet a man and you end up back at your house, and then go to bed, and this is the maybe tmi bit.....

If you have never had sex before and your body clams up and he can't get inside you, but he forces it in, and he knows he is hurting you quite badly but carries on, making you bleed, is that ok? Would that be considered a disastrous sexual encounter or would it be more serious?

This happened a long time ago, but I can't stop thinking about it and it's not a nice feeling. Plus, I didn't have sex or get intimate with anyone for a long long time after that. I can't believe I'm posting this now. Am I overreacting?

greyskull, you were a child. You weren't an adult that go into bed naked with another adult, willingly, with intent to lose your virginity. And at 11, it didn't matter if you had sought to lose your virginity, you were still raped.

oh fgs Dittany just stop it. Really. It's beyond tragic and I'm not going to bite.

I actually said "she didnt say no so it wasn't rape in this instance"

I do not have to justify myself to your blind angry ravings. That's my last word to you on this.

"Accidentally rape" I guess that's what my question was getting at. Maybe there should be a difference like there is for murder (ie murder or manslaughter) would that make men more willing to take the woman's feelings into account?

bythepowerofgreyskull an 11 year old CAN NOT consent! It doesn't matter what you say or don't say at the time, the consent doesn't exist. Please don't feel that the comments here are aimed at your situation because it is totally different.

After my experience I have to say in the same situation I wouldn't go to the police. But what made me really upset was finding out about a year later my mum was raped and didn't even tell us because of what happened to me. She was just walking through a shopping area and attacked. Because I wasn't taken seriously (by the CPS, the police woman said she as a 30 something police woman who specialises in rape has never been creeped out so much by a teenager she said she knew he'd done it) she didn't see the point in putting herself through it either. Sadly Mum was one of those that could have got a conviction because it was an attack. It just goes to show though why people don't come forward.

The man who raped me had done it before in the same way. It was a 13 year old girl, I think he told her he was younger. He met upw ith her and drove her somewhere. It got to court and she backed out at last minute. I'm quite convinced he knew what he was doing. I think he knew I was popular amongst the guys of the online group we were both on, but hadn't been with any of them despite having met most of them (as part of a group mainly, but it was when I was still married) so he knew I wasn't going to be willing.

The police actually told me that because this girl had pulled out it would go for him if it got to court!

I think it is perfectly valid to feel raped, when the situation wasn't a reportable offence

This has hurt you and you need to deal with your feelings by talking it over with someone, whether here, with friends or a counsilor

I do think a man can be lost in his moment and not aware what he is doing isn't right, I don't see how you know, he knew iyswim Sometimes men can just be shite in bed and not have a clue what a woman is enjoying or not enjoying (and there is a definite difference in men and women there)

I've had 2 similar experiences, the first just carried on, even after I screamed no no no, the second stopped only after I screamed no no no. Once the second one twigged he was highly apologetic and in tears, he really couldn't read my signals.

So please find a way through this and talk, your feelings are valid and I guess that is all that matters. It can't go further but you can heal

I don't think Monkeytrousers has said anything other than helpful and thoughtful things Dittany

Using words like 'appalling' it out of order imo

Well, hey, I've never been raped, so maybe I'm allowed to say how horrified I am to see a woman promote the 'she didn't say no, so it isn't rape' myth. After all how can a woman really be raped? All she has to do is keep her legs together
And accusing women who have been raped of not having sufficient distance/disinterest/sense/whatever to be able to discuss rape in a sufficiently intelligent/distanced/sane manner is just really appalling and wrong.

I also think that being so abusive to someone who has just talked about being rape is so nasty, I can't quite believe it. What a horrible contribution the thread. How, exactly, doest it help the OP to lay into someone for being raped, or saying that being raped basically disqualifies you from talking about it! Unbelievable.

mabana who are your posts directed at? I'm totally confused.

Monkeytrousers. I found her posts to be both sneering and patronising, I'm afraid. Lines like 'We must be specific about this' (my itals) as if her opinion is objective fact, due, presumably, to her lofty intellect and cool detachement, while the views of anyone who has been raped is 'mere' opinion, and a rubbish, emotional opinion at that. Sorry, but that's total bollocks.

I'm going to watch some rubbish telly, but I just wanted to add, sorry about your experience Ditttany. To the OP: If he genuinwly knows you are hurt and bleeding and upset, and carries on regardless, he's a rapist. You'd never get a conviction, but he raped you.
MOnkeytrousers, you may well mean well, but I'd say if you are remotely serious about working to help rape victims, you very much need to work on your empathy, and stop thinking your views are superior their experience. Just as say, white people shouldn't lecture black people on how they should feel about racism.

mabanana, how did he know? The op says she did nothing and said nothing. She said she was a virgin - and virgins do bleed, and virgins do kind of lie there because they don't know what else to do. I did exactly the same when I lost my virginity - except I asked him to stop. And he did.

Deciding someone is a rapist because they weren't asked to stop, and therefor carried on having sex with some who unbeknown to them has changed their mind just isn't fair.

How should he have just KNOWN? Some people are just not good at reading non verbal clues, should we lock them all up because they are potential rapists? Is it too much to ask that someone who means no actually says so at least once, especially when they happily got into bed naked with the intention of having sex with the person they now want to say no to?

The experience sounds shit. It really does. But it sounds shit in a 'shagged an inexperienced twat' way. If the OP has decided she has been raped, well she was there and she probably has a better ideas than any of is. But is it entirely rational to tell someone they were raped?

Colditz havetoask said "your body clams up and he can't get inside you, but he forces it in, and he knows he is hurting you quite badly but carries on, making you bleed".

Of course the op will have to decide for herself how she categorises her experience in her own mind.

It is valid for some people to say that if that happened to them they would feel that they had been raped, and for others to write it off to experience and be less emotionally affeced.

But I don't know why you insist on saying that men can't possibly know to stop unless it is explained to them in words. When havetoask says "he knows he is hurting you quite badly but carries on", then that doesn't sound like fumbling inexperience to me, it sounds like he was a right bastard.

Don't you think havetoask knows the difference? She was there and we weren't, and she says he knows he was hurting her but carried on. I am happy to take her word for that.

CHukkypig: because, as Colditz said, sometimes a virgin will bleed, penetration will be difficult, and she won't move or say much - but she might still be consenting to the sex (if the thinks, for instance, that losing her virginigty is something that has to be endured because the first time always hurts, or whatever) and if she doesn't say anything then a man who is also inexperienced and not very smart or very empathetic may well not realise that she wants him to stop.
This does sound like a rotten experience and I sympathise with the OP.
When I lost my virginity, it was painful, unerotic and there was blood (sorry if TMI) but this was not rape in any way, it was a matter of being ill-informed and clumsy on both our parts.

I do think it's important in general to educate our DSs to check that a sexual partner is enjoying what's happening on and is not in pain or distress, and also to educate DDs that they don't have to just put up with bad sex, that they can say no at any time. ANd it is important to tell all our DC that they need to communicate with sexual partners, and say if they are not keen on something, and listen to each other, to stop this sort of miserable crap happening to anyone else.

I think the right to say no needs drilling into our children. We spend 15 years telling them to stop saying "No!" when someone they love asks them to do a favour, then we suddenly expect them to be able to switch on the assertiveness when it comes to sex.

Oh god, I thought this had fallen into oblivion! I didn't realise it would cause such heated debate.
I've not been able to get this out of my head. It's also difficult to get my head around because a while before this happened I was in a situation where I was with a much older man, and I was afraid of what might happen if I didn't go along with it. I really did think he might kill me. Fortunately for me he couldn't get inside me, but he did go down on me amongst other things, which was so degrading. I just shut my eyes. I can't say any more about that, but I got through it.
When the man in my original post tried to have sex with me I froze up because I was afraid. It took me back to the other incident, and I couldn't speak up. I thought that as he he couldn't get it in he may stop and ask if I was ok, because he had seemed so nice at first, but then he just went for it and the pain was so bad I couldn't believe it. He seemed to be oblivious.
Those two events affected my whole life. I'm sorry, maybe I should have mentioned the other incident but my head is so muddled at the moment. I've also been in an abusive relationship where I've said I didn't want to have sex but he pressured me into it. These incidents may also explain the awful panic attacks I used to have and the fact that I've struggled with an eating disorder for years.
I'm sorry if I've made anyone feel terrible. Thanks for all your replies, they are all valid and they all have helped me.

solidgold so in your view if a woman doesn't say no then it is never rape?

I find the idea that a man can't be expected to know if he is causing someone pain or distress is bizarre. If a man was tickling you and you bumped your head and said ow would you expect him to stop and ask if you were alright? Why not during sex? havetoask said he knew that he was hurting her - is it really fine and dandy that he should just carry on regardless?

I can't believe that anyone thinks it is acceptable for a man to behave like this, and as long as the person on the receiving end doesn't speak then he can carry on, even if she is flinching away, has become motionless through obvious terror, is burying her head in a pillow or has become withdrawn.

Why are people so keen to say this man was inexperienced rather than what is ovbious to me - that he was an utter bastard who didn't give a shit as long as he got what he wanted.

Anyway I think this thread has been good for a lot of people who thought they had made it clear they didn't want sex/sexual contact but it made no difference. It's nice to know that others have been in the same position and that feeling that you should have said/done more to stop things happening after an event like this is all too common.

havetoask it sounds like you've been having a terrible time, i really hope that hearing the experiences of others has helped you in some way. I wonder if it would be worth looking into getting help of some kind to process all that's happened to you. I had a hard time coming to terms with what happened to me - and you have had things a lot worse x

Why are people so eager to see a man labeled as a raping bastard when it is equally as clear to me that the situation was very ambiguous?

I have been thinking about this some more and am feeling a bit worried now. There seems to be such a lot of people saying that you have to say no very clearly and maybe put up a struggle as well?

Thinking about what happened to me, I did say no, about twice, I said "no I don't want to". He didn't react in any way at all though and now I'm thinking maybe he didn't hear me? If he was lost in what he was doing then he may well not have heard me. Maybe I should have struggled more - I didn't put up a fight at all as he was so much bigger than me and had my arms pinned up behind my head.

It took me a long time to realise that it wasn't my fault, that he had done something wrong, especially as none of my friends seemed to believe me as he was 'such a nice bloke' and no-one was interested. So I had to deal with it on my own and eventually I came to a point where I thought, no, he did rape me, he was wrong.

However now I'm getting back to thinking that I should have done something more - that he may not have heard me - that I didn't make it clear enough.

i feel a bit sick.